John Calivn Should Be De-Elected For The Murder of Servetus

[Jonah]

Calvin bragged that he saw to the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus...whose crime was to hold unapproved theological opinions.

Calvin is of the "elect"????? Nah. Let's have a church trial.

[scottlittlefield17]

The Calvinistic doctrine has caused untold horrors in "just wars" and empirical tendencies. Also it has wrecked personal lives as I have mentioned before. I have Anabaptist beliefs and have really come to appreciate them. They don't get everything right, one of their weak points is being too legalistic but maybe its better to do "to much" than not enough. Also the tendency to split is a little to strong. That aside they have a strong background.

[Jonah]

Yes, the anabaptist tradition is another thing altogether...and oppressed by the original big-wig Reformation movements. I am impressed by John Howard Yoder's "Politics of Jesus".

But, I must confess I am utterly confused and disheartened by Mennonite anti-semitism. There is some kind of tradition with this that has come down to today in the form of virulent anti-Israel policies through mainly the Mennonite Central Committee. It is well documented that Mennonites supported the Nazi movement. How did that happen? Does it have connection to election issues? This is not an area that I understand.

[scottlittlefield17]

But, I must confess I am utterly confused and disheartened by Mennonite anti-semitism. There is some kind of tradition with this that has come down to today in the form of virulent anti-Israel policies through mainly the Mennonite Central Committee. It is well documented that Mennonites supported the Nazi movement.

Could I have some links to that. I think that something is wrong somewhere. Perhaps it was a certain branch of Mennonites that did not represent the whole group:

[Jonah]

Sure,

This one seems pretty detailed:

http://www.themennonite.org/bloggers/ti ... ica_Part_1

I have seen others like it. I'm not expert on this topic. It doesn't jive with John Howard Yoder. We had a Mennonite fellow come to a Holocaust conference at my shul.

[scottlittlefield17]

Mennonites, who were largely of German and Russian descent, compiled a decidedly mixed record. In the main, they lambasted Nazi anti-Semitism as wrong and cruel, while complaining that it interfered with missionizing attempts to convert German Jews.

From http://christianactionforisrael.org/ant ... lence.html

From what I know of Mennonites (and I know many) I have never ever found any hint of antisemitic feeling in them. So in reading he articles after a Google search I saw that some of them made some mistakes in that era. But it was not across the board and it is also not the feeling today.

Edited to say: Another thing you have to remember is that the Mennonites have a strong German heritage and in that time they were much closer and in some cases dirctly from Germany. As I am sure you know someones country can run high no matter what they believe. I'm not giving them excuses, only making observations. Also Mennonites run the gauntlet from being just like the Amish (no electricity, horse and buggy, no modern equipment etc.) to not being able to tell the difference between them and anyone else walking down the street. There is a wide variety, which personally I think is sad but that is the way it is.

[Jonah]

I have two thoughts about the article. One is that I'm looking at the fuller context of the statement you highlighted:

"Mennonites, who were largely of German and Russian descent, compiled a decidedly mixed record. In the main, they lambasted Nazi anti-Semitism as wrong and cruel, while complaining that it interfered with missionizing attempts to convert German Jews.

According to Davies and Nefsky, anti-Semitism contaminated segments of the Mennonite community. Anti-Jewish sentiments were kindled by the fascination with Hitler and Nazism, and by a belief that Jews were responsible for the ills of the world, especially Communism."

The above would not be extremely comforting to Jews. In general, the Jewish action would be "par for the course". The thing that gets linked to it is the present-day very anti-Israel posture of the Mennonite Central Committee. So, if Jews look at the history, they go, "Well, there ya go".

My other thought would be the question if whether size and cohesiveness of the German community is relative to the degree of anti-semitism. Perhaps that was greater in America. Yes, I am not happy with excusing any of this due to Germanism. In the Lutheran world, I served heavily ethnic German small town and rural parishes, and the German thing went hand-in-hand with the anti-semitic thing. The same thing happens with German enclaves in metro areas...although that has tended to wear off with time.

I am an antique dealer. I do business at an upscale market owned by a wealthy Mennonite family. Many Mennonites and Amish in the area and the market. One day I challenged the Mennonite owner as to why he allows vendors to sell Nazi memorabilia and paraphernalia. His response was that no one had ever protested before...he had never given it a thought...he questioned why anything that happened 60 years ago was relevant today. I was quite shocked. I replied that the issue is relevant because Nazism is very much a present day problem...that it has a ready market with neo-Nazis and White Supremacists. He seemed dumbfounded. The only thing I was left to conclude was that the insulated rural setting of the market really left people not dealing with the rest of the world...or he was conning me. He is a very successful business man with a huge modern campus of buildings that caters to an upscale tourist market who come in on tourist buses.

I dunno. As I said, I'm confused about it all. I shall thankfully receive any and all reports you can give of Mennonite opposition to anti-semitism. I could be a mixed-bag kind of thing relative to individual communities.

[MagusYanam]

The above would not be extremely comforting to Jews. In general, the Jewish action would be "par for the course". The thing that gets linked to it is the present-day very anti-Israel posture of the Mennonite Central Committee. So, if Jews look at the history, they go, "Well, there ya go".

Only problem is, you can't go attributing all stances critical of Israel's political stance toward the Palestinians to anti-Semitism. Many Jews are critical of Israeli politics, even ones who survived the Holocaust and who had ancestors who survived the Holocaust. I would think more than twice before calling any of them anti-Semitic.

http://mccpalestine.blogspot.com/2007/1 ... on-in.html

The MCC is undoubtedly critical of Israel's politics, that much is certain, but not unfairly so - there is certainly nothing to indicate a racial or religious hatred of Jews here; rather the concerns they voice are rights-oriented (both human rights and political rights) with regard to the Palestinians living in the West Bank. The MCC acknowledges Israel's existence and the valid security concerns that Israel faces with regard to terrorist activity among the Palestinian population.

But you're drawing a rather specious line between the political stance of a pacifist religious service organisation and some historical incidences of racist, far-rightist wackos within Anabaptist communities.

[Cathar1950]

Calvin bragged that he saw to the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus...whose crime was to hold unapproved theological opinions.

Calvin is of the "elect"????? Nah. Let's have a church trial.

Growing up with neighbors and friends that were Dutch Reformed I didn't see them much differently then friends and relatives that were Baptists, Methodists or Presbyterian. Then as a college student I didn't care much for Calvin or Calvinism but after I had read this book on Servetus I lost any respect. The guy was a dck.

[Jonah]

Magus,

Is not rocket science for any group to have a pr defense shield...that statement released to the media that says all the very calculated politically correct things. Every entity has its press secretary.

The MCC has direct relationships with Palestinian extremists that support Palestinian terrorists: the organizations BADIL and SABEEL for two. BADIL is so far out there, its application for recognition was rejected by the UN!

Follow the money.

[MagusYanam]

Um... Jonah, have you done any research on this? Sabeel is a Christian charity dedicated to non-violent resistance to Israeli policies they see as unjust. They are not terrorists - they do say some incredibly provocative (and, in my opinion, wrong) things, but that does not put them on the same level as Hizbollah. Same with the (now-defunct) Alternative. They all espoused some degree of secular socialist ideology, but that does not put them outside the pale in Israeli politics. None of the constituent parties are listed as terrorist organisations by the US government (though one of the constituent parties of the Alternative received some kind of aid money from the Syrian government).

And there comes a point where it becomes ridiculous and reprehensible to denigrate and daemonise an entire religious group or implicate them in a conspiracy based on such frail evidence as you're drawing on here. And I'm not just talking about the Mennonites, here.