Italy's nominee to become the European Union's Justice and Home Affairs commissioner failed on Monday to win the backing of the European Parliament's Justice Committee, days after testifying that he considers homosexuality a sin.
The panel narrowly failed to endorse Rocco Buttiglione, who is currently Italy's European Affairs minister, said Jean-Louis Bourlanges, chairman of the Justice Committee.
Buttiglione said that he would fight for the rights of homosexuals, but would not back away from his statement that the lifestyle is sinful.
Isn't this the way it should be? Fight for the rights of homosexuals, but individuals, but define their lifestyle as sinful (Lev. 18:22).
Homosexuality
Moderator: Moderators
Not about YOU...
Post #182jjg, I understand where you are coming from as a person (for the most part).jjg wrote:Mel, I quoted from the catechism of the Church. I respect anybody, but I cannot condone the homosexual act.
If I met you, and you knew I was a homosexual, I'm sure we would get along fine. The things I speak to, come from years of experience and involve multitudes of encounters with "Christians" and other human beings.
The spin-off effects of wrong-handling of homosexual people, is not something I would ever attribute to you personally...I'm begining to sense you are a true PLUS (positive) to the equation. For I don't advocate that homosexuality be called "good" or "right"; just that people do the "right" and "good" things for homosexual people (despite their social and religious biases).
And no element of humor or arrogance intended, I must say that I believe God/Jesus do not mean for "Christians" and others to literally persecute homosexual people; and certainly not in the "special" way which seems to be standard in this society (and others). (It is a HUMAN thing.)
Yes, sin can/should be addressed, but I can assure anyone, that the manner in which homosexual people
are being "scapegoated" (to include being overly burdended with chastisement and disdain and outright rejection), is clearly unjustified and beneficial to no one.
The primary barometers (in ANY case concerning PEOPLE) should be both love and compassion. But some are so apt to condemn and place blame, they aren't helping anyone or anything get better. I've seen this where it concerns racism, greed, marital strife, violence and many other things. People cannot be FORCED to be "good" or "right"; LOVE has to bring them to that right or better place...and that is the exact same message Jesus delivered, several thousand years ago. If not for that LOVE, I would have canned "Christianity" (as a belief) many years ago.
Even so, I want to emphasize, that my comments were certainly not to put you (jjg) or any other poster on trial (that's not my purpose); my purpose to open people's hearts and mind to something far more "difficult" than merely saying homosexuality is a "sin". My goal is to help people realize that they cannot play God, where it concerns this issue in the lives of those they believe are even persishing. In fact, the dusting off of the feet and moving on, is far preferrable to the near-relentless persecution promoted by social and religious culture surrounding this issue.
Homosexuals are right here amongst us all. Not all are promicuous and certainly not all WANTED to be gay. I've expressed my anger to God about this, because many people who are either straight or sold themsleves as being straight, tend to be either unable or unwilling to show compassion where homosexual people are concerned. And the reality is that ANY of us could be raised to be straight as an arrow (like I was), and turn out to be homosexual. With all due respect to those who may have sorted it all out, I have to say that God hasn't explained that to me. The best I've ever done with this, is to control urges and speak discretely about human sexuality...I have not been made "straight" (except in a spiritual sense).
I just want the average sinful person (to include most "Christians"), to stay off of the backs of the average homosexual person (don't RIDE them politically, socially, morally and religiously...doing more damage than they know); that's all. There are more issues than homosexuality looming inside of this reality. And the fact is, that people are or do become homosexuals...I can't explain it...I just know I have to endure it.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Post #183
Let's agree and end it on that point. I would not persecute homosexuals or anyone else for that matter.
I was labelled by some as a homosexual in high school so I at least have an inkling of the difficulty you must have experienced.
Best of luck!
I was labelled by some as a homosexual in high school so I at least have an inkling of the difficulty you must have experienced.
Best of luck!
The End? (Not really.)
Post #184I think I understand your sentiments, and in light of that understanding, I appreciate them. But I have to tell you, that people (other kids) wondering about my sexuality, was easy...compared to what they were taught to THINK about it. Remember, every problem that hits a gay person because of inhumane attitudes and/or misplaced belief systems, gets passed on to CHILDREN. Thus, it affects and even scars those who are REALLY dealing with homosexuality. It's not an easy thing for this society to acknowledge, but it's quite REAL (I can assure you). It's really no wonder that many homosexuals DO have mental issues, that stretch beyond their sexual orientation itself.jjg wrote:Let's agree and end it on that point. I would not persecute homosexuals or anyone else for that matter.
I was labelled by some as a homosexual in high school so I at least have an inkling of the difficulty you must have experienced.
Best of luck!
Even so, what must take place is continued dialogue. To give the idea that things as they are, is good enough (intentionally or not), is a recipe for continued tragedy in the lives of many. Of course, those who have their minds and attitudes resolved at this point, may opt out of the discussion; I understand that. Still, there is a LOT MORE our society needs to seriously discuss and understand about homosexuality (full spectrum, not limited to arguments of traditions morality and religion); how people are treated overall, is the main issue (IMHO).
I don't want to see homosexuality proliferated as THE thing to get into or be necessarily "proud" of, but we cannot push it aside, and expect that by social-osmosis the problems around it will be resolved. As sure as the levy that broke and flooded New Orleans, this will affect us all as severely but in every social, moral and spiritual way (every indicator seems to point to that being the case); homosexuals aren't just going to disappear from reality. Divorce and one-parent families are likely the MOST dire issues facing children today, yet compared to the crusade against homosexuality...those things come off as a "whisper" on the moral/social landscape. (Why is that?)
I credit God with improvements (or restraint) concerning my sexual behavior, but the fact remains that this society really needs to start making adjustments for people who don't fit the stereotypical sexual norms. And like I implied, I don't think that homosexuality is "ideal", it's just that people need to become more conscious of the related injustices and prejudices surrounding the issue.
I tried the "leaving-it-be" approach, and even worked hard (for a very long time, decades) toward at least altering my personal sexual sensibilities (that affects a person socially). That isn't enough apparently, as this society continues to persecute homosexual people. I respect and regard the moral and religious concerns as many express them, but the "Christianity" many bring to the table, clearly lacks the power of God to transform or edify the very people who need it most (with respect to the issue). People couldn't see my struggles, didn't want to really KNOW about them, and unfortunately could only tentatively handle what I might reveal, as consequence of unnecessary bias and closed-mindedness.
The day I can go to a church, and hear a presently-struggling homosexual express their burdens (much as alcoholics and the criminally-violent tend to do), without running through the unnecessary gauntlet of STIGMAS and cruel assumptions they typically have to, is the day when I think "believers" really GET IT. Until then, I know it is imporant to help as many people as possible...to have reasons and understanding to show compassion to people who are homosexual. That is, it REALLY needs to come to the point where: "Love the sinner, reject the sin.", is a statement reflecting true HOPE and LOVE rather than the empty-promise it too often represents (especially amongst "Christians").
We cannot hide the FULL range of issues any longer, and we can't BEAT ON the people who find themselves affected by it (falsely hoping that will CHANGE their states). In many cases, it comes off the same as blamming the effects of DIVORCE, upon the children who are affected by it (I KNOW it's not the same thing, but that's how it so often feels to the person who can't change a thing about the way they are).
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Post #185
We can continue to talk about it if you like.
From a Catholic point of view, you are not supposed to use conracteptives but people overlook that and also there infidelity and all sorts of issues even masturbation.
From a Catholic point of view, you are not supposed to use conracteptives but people overlook that and also there infidelity and all sorts of issues even masturbation.
More Stuff
Post #186Sure, I'll continue discussing it here (on the site) from time to time.jjg wrote:We can continue to talk about it if you like.
From a Catholic point of view, you are not supposed to use conracteptives but people overlook that and also there infidelity and all sorts of issues even masturbation.
But the goal of my last post was to point out that there are definitely more aspects that this society needs to consider concerning homosexuality itself. I personally tried drawing THE line with the Bible and faith, more times than I can remember; I eventually stopped making promises to God and went one step/day at a time.
I was raised Catholic, but issues about using contraception and masturbation seemed trivial, compared to dealing with homosexuality itself. What I noticed in my younger years, was how carefree people "seemed" to be about heterosexual acts. I had learned to restrain much of what I was feeling as a teen, so I focused a lot of energy into art/music. There were some guys I played around with, but it was definitely too risky to have a homosexual relationship. And yeah, the whole of my youth, was spent enduring those conflicting urges, sometimes experimenting with girls, but never really "wanting" them; that whole thing was so surreal to me (even when I think about it now).
Eventually, I figured out that a more universal type of relationship suited me; treating other men/women like brothers and sisters. In large part, I stuck with that, and there was/is no conflict in that; very good things stem from that.
What was very difficult though, was finding out that I wasn't "supposed" to be "gay". People would pester me about not having a "girlfriend", and point to women expecting me to respond like an out of control animal. I'm not a feminine-acting guy (nor am I macho/overcompensating); so most guys didn't really know what to think of my "level" responses to heterosexual stimulus. I always understood what turned heterosexual men on, but the same did not turn me on. After over 20 years of feeling that way, I became quite accustomed to it; it's just the way I was somehow "wired" (or got the wires crossed). God hasn't explained that to me (yet).
LOVE is what made the most sense to me (and still does); it's what drew me to Christianity and Jesus (period). I was/am very spritual, and I took my struggles with self-control and homosexuality extremely seriously. Even so, the heaviest weight was the SOCIAL one (Why aren't you "married"? You've NEVER been married before? Got any KIDS?). Half of the time, people want to just get to know you, and other times they don't really care, and just want to OUT you. You have to be careful, in a society where a great number of people view being gay (whether you are active or not) as some kind of "crime" or deviant "lifestyle" you've consciously chosen.
During the last election, I noticed that the "visible" Christians, seemed to line up behind the Rep Party, and the other less politically inclined Christians tended to be found in the Dem Party. And it's interesting to see that people were so "divided". Homosexual "marriage" became THE issue; funny thing is, most homosexual people I knew, had never even discussed that with me, nor did they promote such. All most of us wanted was to NOT be persecuted just because of our sexual orientation or preference.
Recently, when the Catholic Priest sex scandals emerged to the fore, I found myself in total agreement that anyone having sex with a child, should surely be punished severely. It didn't take any deep soul-searching to reach that position, but it did kind of amaze me that about that time, I began to hear more about child molestation and homosexuality together (people would LUMP the two subjects into one); it was as if people wanted to attach anything they could to homosexuals or homosexuality, that made it seem worse. Many didn't seem to care that promoting stereotypes and stigmas affected people negatively; it certainly didn't reduce the numbers of homosexuals (as far as I know).
I'm super-rambling now, but what I'm mainly getting at, is that people need to stop with the near-exclusive spotlighting of homosexuality and people who happen to be gay; a great deal is escaping their view...not the least of which is the undue, unkind and uncompassionate pressures they have become accustomed to placing on the shoulders of homosexual people (across the board). There's nothing helpful or spiritual about that, at all. I really dont mind people calling homosexual acts a sin, but that EXTRA-EXCLUSIVE effort many seem to conjure up to HURT homosexual people (more than other "sinners"), kind of amazes and angers me at the same time.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Gay Marriage
Post #188Well...I had heard about situations where 2 devoted companions (living together), were not allowed certain legal access to important affairs (i.e. visitation rights during illnesses and handling of property in the case of death...etc.)jjg wrote:Mel, what do you think of the issue of gay marriage?
I do not think we have to call such legal agreements "marriage"; my view of marriage is more biblically based than secular. I do see man/woman as the primary definition there.
Having said that, I think there is a specific need to address the relationships (although they are viewed as immoral or inappropriate, by some) which nevertheless do exist.
I believe religion can speak to the morality of human issues, but that morality need not (or should not) be forced BY LAW upon individuals. The ONLY time that law should align itself with religion, is when law happens to be maintaining and protecting the basic RIGHTS and safety of the citizens those laws serve. I don't believe it is good to have religious/moral laws absolutely aligned with secular and/or civil laws. I think history shows us that morality is not something that laws can/do actually maintain; for better or for worse (as we interpret things), God does His work within the human heart.
Gay "marriage" (as a term), can actually be dropped (as far as I'm concerned), as long as it doesn't hinder or prohibit those in same-gender relationships from having equal rights and privileges as citizens. Ultimately, for this society to not recognize that commited same-gender relationships exist and/or pretend they are insignificant, will help nothing.
The morality and ethics of certain aspects can be questioned but that shouldn't necessarily determine the legality of such (same-gender) unions, as is already represented in many non-religious (and some religious) heterosexual marriages.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Interesting Media Clips
Post #189"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
