objective moral values

[achilles12604]

By definition :

Objective : Grammar.
Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.

Moral : mor-al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrl, mr-)
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

values : duh!


Based on these definitons, I am wondering if objective moral values even exist for an atheist. I do not mean to say that there are NO moral atheists. However, can atheists have objective moral values? What do they base there morals on? is a better way of asking the same question.

Since they deny any form of deity or religious structure, what do they base there morals on and furthermore, why are their morals correct instead of just the opposit being true?

[Grumpy]

achilles12604

Extream bias was shown by Juliod when he claimed that the apologist must be lying and that all Christians lie because thier religion is nothing but a bunch of liars.

I do not know precisely what Juliod asserted, but can understand the frustration indicated from my own dealings with those so convinced their interpretation of scripture overrides the understanding of the universe we have so recently wrested and pried from that universe.

When we look at the advances man has made using the scientific method we must remember that those advances came DESPITE everything religions could do to stop them. It is only in the last 300 years we have been able to shrug off the chains blind faith and dogmatism shackled us with.

So scientists are still fighting these same forces today, it's a real struggle sometimes. We probably are a bit TOO sensative about it sometimes.

But then we really do have Ludite forces to contend with, the ID in our schools movement is only the most visible and the latest. They are trying to dumb down our education system to save THEIR INTERPRETATIONS of what being a Christian is. The world cannot afford to let this happen, ignorance will kill us in the not too distant future if we do!!!

Grumpy

[Jose]

I found an interesting pattern in Hitler's "Christianity." The quotes that we are sure of, (ie not table talk but actual speaches), where Hitler refers to his beliefs, are almost all before 1930. Hitler's reign of terror was not for another 10-20 years from these speaches. Therefore, I submit that while Hitler may have had Christian beliefs (as many atheists on this forum also claim "former Christians") he turned from those beliefs when his plan for life fell apart.

...

Regardless, his actions were certainly not of the teachings of Jesus which by itself is enough to convince me that during at least that time, he did not have the love of Christ in his heart and was therefore, not a Christian, whatever he claimed before.

What about these quotes?

Berlin, FEBRUARY 1, 1933
The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.

Stuttgart, Feb 15, 1933
In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.

Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934.
"Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions."

"The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed."

(Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."

( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )

"I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.

"There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.

"The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )


"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work."

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )

"At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine willnot in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord."

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )

I couldn't agree more that Hitler did not have the love of Christ in his heart as he said these things. But, it sure sounds like he thought he was doing god's work. If not, he knew how to pretend he was, in order to get the faithful behind him.

This doesn't indict other Christians. It merely says this guy was a slime-ball, who unfortunately made it into politics and was highly successful at it. This ought to be a caution to us never to elect public officials on the basis of religious moral certainty. It blinds them to the atrocities they commit in the name of their beliefs.

[achilles12604]

Thanks for the additional information. I continue to assimilate knowledge from both sides and I welcome critiques from Christians as well as opposing views.

Thanks, and duely noted.

[Lonecrow]

Its hard when you want to post replies from three pages ago but here I go anyway.

"Can an aethist have objective moral values"

Sure, An aethiest just doesn't belive in god(s). It would be possible for them to study the behavior of anuimals and build an ethical framework based on those observations. Their moral code would be defensible as "objective" and probably more so then one based upon a god(s). After all its pretty easy to point to animals and say "see that is how nature conducts itself so we should follow thier example".

Now if your question was "Is there any objective reference for moral values" that would be an interesting questions. For Christians I suppose the answer is easy. God. For others, Aetheists included, I am sure there would be a variety of answers.

For myself I don't think there can be any objective basis for morals for the simple fact that all of our observations are limited to our human sense. Any patterns we see in the universe are not "universal" they are mearly reflections of our own biology.

For a weak example. Humans have 3 types of cones in our eyes that allow us to see color. Each cone receives the light and the brain sort of averages the wavelengths received by each and says "hey its blue". Birds have four cones and can see ultra-violet light. They see patterns in nature that we can't. There is no real point in saying "well what color is ultra-violet?" There is nothing we can do to even imagine it because we are limited to our own biological frame of reference.

Now extend that as an analogy to our intellect, our emotions, and any sense of soul you might have and consider that you only ever perceive and think about a partial reflection of the universe, never the actual thing.

So how can there be any objective reference for morals?

[Cathar1950]

Lonecrow

"Can an aethist have objective moral values"
Any patterns we see in the universe are not "universal" they are mearly reflections of our own biology.

For a weak example. Humans have 3 types of cones in our eyes that allow us to see color. Each cone receives the light and the brain sort of averages the wavelengths received by each and says "hey its blue". Birds have four cones and can see ultra-violet light. They see patterns in nature that we can't. There is no real point in saying "well what color is ultra-violet?" There is nothing we can do to even imagine it because we are limited to our own biological frame of reference.

Now extend that as an analogy to our intellect, our emotions, and any sense of soul you might have and consider that you only ever perceive and think about a partial reflection of the universe, never the actual thing.

So how can there be any objective reference for morals?

That is the first thing I read today that made sense.
It was also the first thing I read so maybe it is just a coincidence.
"There is nothing we can do to even imagine it because we are limited to our own biological frame of reference." Everything is limited in such a way.
I sometimes wonder about those that believe in God and obey if they have any moral values. Obedience is not moral. It is valued.
As for an objective moral value I can only think that you would be objective if we all agreed and the object was unchanging. I dont know how humans could do such a thing that along for it to exist. Change always happens.
You do make a good point Lonecrow.

[The Happy Humanist]

I'd like to put this Hitler thing to bed, if I may. I have studied the occultist underpinnings of the Third Reich, and I conclude that Hitler was neither atheist nor, by Christian standards (and possibly anyone's), a Christian.

He was a Nazi.

Make no mistake Nazism was a cult, one that allegedly traced its roots back to before Christ (one Nazi occultist claimed Aryan stock went back 50,000 years!). In his public speeches, Hitler paid lip service to Christianity, as Jose said, largely to rally the mostly Christian Deutchchevolke, but notice that he claims special insight into its true meaning:

"I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity.

By this he means everyone from St. Peter on down. You see, Hitler believed in a non-Jewish, "Ario-heroic" spirit of Jesus, which had been distorted over the centuries by the Roman church. This and all manner of other wild occultist beliefs fermented in the Hitler "worldview brew."

Nor was Hitler even a true, devout occultist; rather, he put up with Himmler's ravings because his acolytes in the Ahnenerbe, men like Karl Willigut and Lanz Von Liebenfels, were continually coming up with new "scientific" and spiritualist evidence for a master race, which of course served Hitler's purposes.

In the end, I guess Hitler worshipped...Hitler.

Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me

So...can we agree not to blame this man on each other?

[achilles12604]

I'd like to put this Hitler thing to bed, if I may. I have studied the occultist underpinnings of the Third Reich, and I conclude that Hitler was neither atheist nor, by Christian standards (and possibly anyone's), a Christian.

He was a Nazi.

Make no mistake Nazism was a cult, one that allegedly traced its roots back to before Christ (one Nazi occultist claimed Aryan stock went back 50,000 years!). In his public speeches, Hitler paid lip service to Christianity, as Jose said, largely to rally the mostly Christian Deutchchevolke, but notice that he claims special insight into its true meaning:

"I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity.

By this he means everyone from St. Peter on down. You see, Hitler believed in a non-Jewish, "Ario-heroic" spirit of Jesus, which had been distorted over the centuries by the Roman church. This and all manner of other wild occultist beliefs fermented in the Hitler "worldview brew."

Nor was Hitler even a true, devout occultist; rather, he put up with Himmler's ravings because his acolytes in the Ahnenerbe, men like Karl Willigut and Lanz Von Liebenfels, were continually coming up with new "scientific" and spiritualist evidence for a master race, which of course served Hitler's purposes.

In the end, I guess Hitler worshipped...Hitler.

Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me

So...can we agree not to blame this man on each other?

Yes, lets do put him to bed. . . . .

in fact lets invent a time machine and put him to bed a lot earlier than he was ok?

[The Happy Humanist]

Yes, lets do put him to bed. . . . .

in fact lets invent a time machine and put him to bed a lot earlier than he was ok?

Funny you should mention that...I'm in the midst of a book proposal with a very similar plot line...