How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 85 by ttruscott]

Before creation there was only one, a singularity of good. Good existed without evil perfectly and completely in the nature of GOD.

Yes, and it will again when the new heaven and new earth appear and all things are made new.

God speed that day!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 87 by ttruscott]

Inherited sin from Adam is a blasphemy and unacceptable to those who actually accept GOD's holiness and do not just pay it lip service.

As I understand it, inherited sin (or its effects) from Adam is what Paul taught in Romans.

If so, does that make him a blasphemer as far as you are concerned?

What is your view of Paul, his calling, his ministry, and his letters?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 87 by ttruscott]

Inherited sin from Adam is a blasphemy and unacceptable to those who actually accept GOD's holiness and do not just pay it lip service.

As I understand it, inherited sin (or its effects) from Adam is what Paul taught in Romans.

If so, does that make him a blasphemer as far as you are concerned?

What is your view of Paul, his calling, his ministry, and his letters?

Paul wrote scripture. I think Paul had a tough job after being taught so much which he was disallowed to speak about. I think Paul got Romans 5:12 right but the orthodox view that we are created at our conception (or birth) has skewed the interpretation of what he wrote until it is blasphemous.

Paul never wrote about inherited sin and very clearly says that we inherit death and judgement from Adam, which has been taken by the churches to mean that we inherited sin because they lack the truth that we chose to be sinners on our own by our free will but came into Adam's death so that Christ would only have to die once for all the sinful elect.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 90 by ttruscott]

Paul wrote scripture. I think Paul had a tough job after being taught so much which he was disallowed to speak about.

Why do you say he was disallowed? Where is that in scripture?

I think Paul got Romans 5:12 right but the orthodox view that we are created at our conception (or birth) has skewed the interpretation of what he wrote until it is blasphemous.

It may be skewd, but how does that make it blasphemous? That is a strong word!

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 90 by ttruscott]

Paul wrote scripture. I think Paul had a tough job after being taught so much which he was disallowed to speak about.

Why do you say he was disallowed? Where is that in scripture?

I find it in 2 Cor 12:2-4 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

I think Paul got Romans 5:12 right but the orthodox view that we are created at our conception (or birth) has skewed the interpretation of what he wrote until it is blasphemous.

It may be skewd, but how does that make it blasphemous? That is a strong word!

I call it blasphemous because it only pays lip service to GOD's loving holiness in that it implies that HE made / created people evil by having them born as humans with no choice on their part, a highly unloving and unholy thing to do.

And a thousand books of theo-babble to prove that HE was righteous by making us as sinners when HE could have made us like HE made Adam, ingenuously innocent, will only be believed by those who know HIM not at all as loving and holy except by speculation and word play.

Only the theology that we were created before the earth was created and chose to be sinners before the earth was created and then are SOWN (not created ) into the earth as humans sinful at conception and birth break us free from the delusion that HE created us to be conceived and born in sin as sinners in Adam. If they did not have to answer how we can be created so as to be born already sinners without impugning HIS loving holiness, no one would ever think to interpret Romans the way they do...that is they would rather impugn HIS loving holiness than accept our pre-earth existence and fall.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 92 by ttruscott]

Only the theology that we were created before the earth was created and chose to be sinners before the earth was created and then are SOWN (not created ) into the earth as humans sinful at conception and birth break us free from the delusion that HE created us to be conceived and born in sin as sinners in Adam. If they did not have to answer how we can be created so as to be born already sinners without impugning HIS loving holiness, no one would ever think to interpret Romans the way they do...that is they would rather impugn HIS loving holiness than accept our pre-earth existence and fall.

That is an interesting theology, but where is there solid scriptural proof, if any?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 92 by ttruscott]

Only the theology that we were created before the earth was created and chose to be sinners before the earth was created and then are SOWN (not created ) into the earth as humans sinful at conception and birth break us free from the delusion that HE created us to be conceived and born in sin as sinners in Adam. If they did not have to answer how we can be created so as to be born already sinners without impugning HIS loving holiness, no one would ever think to interpret Romans the way they do...that is they would rather impugn HIS loving holiness than accept our pre-earth existence and fall.

That is an interesting theology, but where is there solid scriptural proof, if any?

The explanation without symbolism of the parable of the good seed. Matt 13:36+, proves we were sown into the world already separated into either the people of the kingdom or the people of the evil one and sown cannot mean to create because the devil does it too.

A word study of the use of "return" will 'prove' that people return to Sheol after their death and that His sheep who go astray return to Him upon their conversion and since we are born sinners, our choosing to be evil in HIS sight (going astray) must have been pre-earth and we return to Him after living with the tares. If we became sinners by being born in Adam, how can it be said we went astray which implies choice? IF He made us sinners in Adam it is better written He sent us away into sin, right? And if we were lost was it really His fault, since that implies He was not a very good shepherd at all? Nope, our going astray was our choice like the prodigal son and our return is by His grace and the election promise.

There is proof for those with ears to hear in the story of the man born blind when the disciples asked, Who sinned, his parents of him that he was born blind? Let alone this is contrary to all Jewish teachings of the day but after a short time with Jesus, they are asking very strange questions with strange implications. Jesus answered that he was not born blind for any sin but was born blind so that GOD could be glorified in his healing as healing a man born blind was a miracle only the Messiah was able to do. What He did not say as any good modern orthodox would was "No man can sin before he is born! And His lack of addressing that part of their query is telling.

Of course we know that the foetus can sin if we believe what we are told that Jacob and Esau were trying to crush each other to pieces, that is, to murder each other as that is what the word jostle and wrestle etc really mean. This verse should give you great pause in your studies in that it clearly shows the bias against our being created pre-earth but by having these two murderers to be innocent causes great disruption in the apologetic force.

Now I have a vague memory of writing this all out for you already but maybe it was someone else. I also claimed to have dozens and dozens of other verses that support the interpretation of our pre-earth existence and offer to go over more but there were no takers....funny if they really wanted to know what scriptures I use, eh? Perhaps they thought I could not have any and when they saw I did they panicked and turned away.

Now, since you started this by asking for proof, I ask what scripture do you have that solidly proves our pre-conception existence is false? Remember, I don't ask for your interpretation but your proof. No such thing, eh, because we are to live by faith, not proof. So don't waste your time schooling me on the orthodox version of these verses - if that was your purpose for asking - I left orthodoxy 45 years ago by the leading of the Holy Spirit and I doubt you will add anything new within orthodoxy.

[X-Christian]

[Replying to post 1 by ttruscott]

I have a couple of questions for Christians.
1 - if god is all knowing then he knew before time began who would accept him or could even possibly have ever heard of him. There's too many religions on this planet as of right now that doesn't even know the name jesus even exist. This is not including the billions people that has died believing in the god of their time based off of the geographical location they were born in. Just liked Christians. Since jesus said that he is the only way to god and since god is all knowing then he knew before time began who he was sending to hell to be burned. Sounds like an evil dictator. Personally, id rather had not been born then to be born by God but predestined for hell. And any response that disagrees and says he still gives me the choice totally takes away the claim that he's all knowing.
2nd question is why didn't gods curse for Satan to slither on his belly and only eat dust in the garden didn't stick? We obviously see Satan walking around in the book of job. He was standing with Jesus when he offered him the kingdom after jesus's baptism and he's all over revelation walking around. What happened to God's curse? Apparently god isn't as powerful as Christians say.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 1 by ttruscott]

I have a couple of questions for Christians.

These would probably be more appropriate on their own thread, because this topic is about meeting Adam and Eve.

Personally, id rather had not been born then to be born by God but predestined for hell.

I can go along with this for sure. Christians also say that God would never violate our freewill. I would personally rather he violated my freewill and prevented me from doing acts that will have me cast into Hell, then to have freewill and be cast into Hell.

It's all so ludicrous really. Many biblical beliefs are irrational. Why would anyone want to live on this earth or have freewill if it meant they were going to suffer in Hell for all eternity?

And any response that disagrees and says he still gives me the choice totally takes away the claim that he's all knowing.
2nd question is why didn't gods curse for Satan to slither on his belly and only eat dust in the garden didn't stick? We obviously see Satan walking around in the book of job. He was standing with Jesus when he offered him the kingdom after jesus's baptism and he's all over revelation walking around. What happened to God's curse? Apparently god isn't as powerful as Christians say.

Good questions, but they would be more appropriate on their own threads. Feel free to start some up.

[Taff Lafferty]

There is no heaven.