Bible - cruelty and violence

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God's cruelty shows that God is evil.

Yes
9
47%
No
9
47%
Don't know
1
5%
 
Total votes: 19

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Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?

Haven

Post #2

Post by Haven »

Absolutely. God, if he exists (which is highly implausible), is an evil, sadistic monster and is therefore not worthy of worship. The monstrous, (allegedly) God-ordained acts described in the Bible speak for themselves.

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Post #3

Post by Compassionist »

haven07 wrote:Absolutely. God, if he exists (which is highly implausible), is an evil, sadistic monster and is therefore not worthy of worship. The monstrous, (allegedly) God-ordained acts described in the Bible speak for themselves.
Thank you very much. I found another related webpage.

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Re: Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #4

Post by Yahu »

Compassionist wrote:Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?
What nonsense. The first item on that list of cruelty for example is a woman that grabs a guy by the nuts for fighting with her husband. I am all for cutting her hand off and not giving her any pity.

I don't have any problem giving Yah all praise and worship. I agree with His positions for the laws of His people. It was to set them apart at a higher standard of behavior as the priesthood to all nations of mankind.

Most of those listed are twisted ridiculously. For example:
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control.
This has NOTHING what so ever to do with masturbation or birth control but about inheritance law. Onan didn't want his brother's widow to have a child because that child would be entitled to the double portion of inheritance given to the eldest. With his elder brother dead and childless, he would gain the double portion as well as a larger percent due to there being less sons. It was GREED that killed him. The SOLE purpose of him having any sexual contact with her was to give her a child that would inherit the dead father's portion to maintain Tamar for the rest of her life.

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Re: Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #5

Post by TheBlackPhilosophy »

Compassionist wrote:Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?
Yes...but only yes if we suppose that the bible is inerrant and completely true. If not, then the argument falls apart. Unless we still suppose that the bible is mostly true, in which case the arguments still works for the most part.

Or, if we refer to the "God of the Bible", then your argument would still be valid.
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Re: Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #6

Post by Thatguy »

Yahu wrote:
What nonsense. The first item on that list of cruelty for example is a woman that grabs a guy by the nuts for fighting with her husband. I am all for cutting her hand off and not giving her any pity.

I don't have any problem giving Yah all praise and worship. I agree with His positions for the laws of His people. It was to set them apart at a higher standard of behavior as the priesthood to all nations of mankind.

Most of those listed are twisted ridiculously. For example:
Onan
This has NOTHING what so ever to do with masturbation or birth control but about inheritance law. Onan didn't want his brother's widow to have a child because that child would be entitled to the double portion of inheritance given to the eldest. With his elder brother dead and childless, he would gain the double portion as well as a larger percent due to there being less sons. It was GREED that killed him. The SOLE purpose of him having any sexual contact with her was to give her a child that would inherit the dead father's portion to maintain Tamar for the rest of her life.
As with any discussion of fairness and justice, you can't get everyone to agree on what's even obviously right or obviously unfair. We members of Western Civilization would consider chopping off hands to be not quite the done thing, justicewise. And yet, as obvious as that is to us, there are going to be those who say "Hells yes, give me the cleaver and I'll do it myself." Most of them are centered around Iran, Pakistan, and the comment sections of internet news sites.

Many believers are going to give God a pass when it comes to judging him for fairness. All sorts of moral convolutions will be applied to take what's obviously unfair and make it seem fair somehow. Case in point, chopping off the hand of the woman who grabs the gonads of a man for that man having fought with her husband. Not everyone who fights by using a family jewel hold. Just this particular type of woman. We are told that we have to put this in historical context, that we have to see it from God's perspective, or whatever. Truth be told, it's a grossly overblown punishment. But we can only argue that to the mythical unbiased observer, any individual reader might see no problem with such an injustice.

As for the Onan business, the quote says it has been used for centuries as the basis of anti-masturbation and anti-birth control arguments by believers. They may all have been wrong, but the quote is dead on. The Onan passage has been, and still is, used for that interpretation. If the man was being greedy insofar as inheritance is concerned, well, maybe it was only fair that he killed Onan the way he killed Jacob. Consistency is the hallmark of fairness. Oh, Jacob prospered? never mind. Don't be stingy with your seed when shtupping your brother's widow. After all, as with hot dog makers, Onan was held to a higher authority.

cnorman18

Post #7

Post by cnorman18 »

Of course, this entire debate is predicated on the assumption that the Bible is something more than the collected ancient literature of the Jewish people. I didn't vote, because I don't agree that the Bible proves anything about "God's cruelty," never mind about whether that claim proves anything about God being "evil."

That some claim that this collection of ancient writings is authoritative -- make that "AUTHORITATIVE" -- on the nature of God, is the "Word of God," matters of morality in the present day, and suchlike, is hardly the fault of the book itself. We Jews don't, by and large, hold such views -- and we WROTE this stuff.

From my own rabbi: "If you see something in the Torah that you know to be wrong, there are two possibilities: Either you do not understand the Torah properly -- or the Torah is wrong." Notice that the third, or fundamentalist, alternative is missing; that of overruling one's own rational thought and moral sense in favor of book-worshipping dogmatism.

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Re: Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #8

Post by Autodidact »

Yahu wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?
What nonsense. The first item on that list of cruelty for example is a woman that grabs a guy by the nuts for fighting with her husband. I am all for cutting her hand off and not giving her any pity.

I don't have any problem giving Yah all praise and worship. I agree with His positions for the laws of His people. It was to set them apart at a higher standard of behavior as the priesthood to all nations of mankind.

Most of those listed are twisted ridiculously. For example:
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control.
This has NOTHING what so ever to do with masturbation or birth control but about inheritance law. Onan didn't want his brother's widow to have a child because that child would be entitled to the double portion of inheritance given to the eldest. With his elder brother dead and childless, he would gain the double portion as well as a larger percent due to there being less sons. It was GREED that killed him. The SOLE purpose of him having any sexual contact with her was to give her a child that would inherit the dead father's portion to maintain Tamar for the rest of her life.
So, for example, soldiers running their swords through babies and killing them--that's o.k. with you? Also buying and selling other people as property--that's fine? But eating lobster--that's an abomination, right?

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Post #9

Post by Compassionist »

cnorman18 wrote:Of course, this entire debate is predicated on the assumption that the Bible is something more than the collected ancient literature of the Jewish people. I didn't vote, because I don't agree that the Bible proves anything about "God's cruelty," never mind about whether that claim proves anything about God being "evil."

That some claim that this collection of ancient writings is authoritative -- make that "AUTHORITATIVE" -- on the nature of God, is the "Word of God," matters of morality in the present day, and suchlike, is hardly the fault of the book itself. We Jews don't, by and large, hold such views -- and we WROTE this stuff.

From my own rabbi: "If you see something in the Torah that you know to be wrong, there are two possibilities: Either you do not understand the Torah properly -- or the Torah is wrong." Notice that the third, or fundamentalist, alternative is missing; that of overruling one's own rational thought and moral sense in favor of book-worshipping dogmatism.
I like what you said. First, we have to decide whether the Bible is TRUE. IF it is TRUE then I find such a God to be EVIL. IF it is FALSE then what it says is irrelevant.

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Re: Bible - cruelty and violence

Post #10

Post by Compassionist »

Yahu wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Please read this list of cruelty in the Bible. Is the Bible true? If it is true then why is God so cruel and violent? Doesn't God's cruelty make God evil and unworthy of praise and worship?
What nonsense. The first item on that list of cruelty for example is a woman that grabs a guy by the nuts for fighting with her husband. I am all for cutting her hand off and not giving her any pity.

I don't have any problem giving Yah all praise and worship. I agree with His positions for the laws of His people. It was to set them apart at a higher standard of behavior as the priesthood to all nations of mankind.

Most of those listed are twisted ridiculously. For example:
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control.
This has NOTHING what so ever to do with masturbation or birth control but about inheritance law. Onan didn't want his brother's widow to have a child because that child would be entitled to the double portion of inheritance given to the eldest. With his elder brother dead and childless, he would gain the double portion as well as a larger percent due to there being less sons. It was GREED that killed him. The SOLE purpose of him having any sexual contact with her was to give her a child that would inherit the dead father's portion to maintain Tamar for the rest of her life.
How can you justify all the slaughtering in the Bible e.g. Amalekites, Canaanites, Medianites, etc? Not to mention killing off all living things except the alleged occupants of Noah's ark. How is such atrocious commands leading to a 'higher standard of behaviour'? Buddha taught far better than the Bible.

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