Sex, Virginity and Marriage

[Keithstone23]

A few days ago I was talking to a friend, and we came up with the three strongest arguments we could think of for allowing premarital sex. The argument goes as follows:

In today's society, the meaning of marriage is completely different than it was many years ago. According to statistics, the average age most people get married today is 27 years old. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html) Back in Biblical times the average age was 14. (http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/20 ... page20.htm) I'm not going to deny the fact that a major contributing factor of premarital sex is the media, but I am going to lay the blame on hormones. These hormones which fuel our sexual desires were never meant to be kept pent up until the age of 28, but were supposed to be released during the teenage years when most of the population would have been married. God never intended for the majority of the population to remain abstinent through the peak of their hormones, as that would be defying nature, the way God never intended it to happen.

And what really is marriage? Does love truly need a priest or pastor to combine the two souls for all of eternity and deem them as married or can it be done in private and seen by God's eyes? I'm, going to argue that it can be done solely in God's eyes, because he is the judge and the modern institution of marriage doesn't validate the intertwining of souls, that is for God to decide. I derived this argument, because in the creation story in Genesis 2:20-25, the High Priest (God) was the only one around to validate Adam and Eve's companionship/marriage. "But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.� 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. Adam and his wife were both naked" You see, it doesn't take a clergy member to confirm a marriage. It only takes God. God was the only priest (being the High Priest) around and they became husband and wife as seen by the word choice in the final sentence of the Bible excerpt, and there was no service or exchange of vows.

The increasingly high rate of divorce in today's society is another sign that marriage is no longer a time-honored commitment. The most famous part of wedding vows is, "for better or worse," and it seems that society today disrespects the meaning those four words contain by divorcing without persevering through hardship. To make matters worse, people become married today for the most selfish and trivial of reasons. An example of a frivolous reason for marriage would be that a couple achieves better tax breaks than a single person. Finally another reason for marriage is the need for sex. Christians abstain from the "magical experience" of sexual intercourse, which can in turn make them have a heightened desire sex, to the point of marrying just to experience sex. Now that I have presented a few basic arguments (I can easily list many, many more reasons) is it beginning to make sense why marriage today is not what God intended? God intended marriage to be for one reason alone: love. It was never meant for the monetary gain or selfish desires that corrupt the institution today. I believe that the term premarital sex should apply only to people who have sex without love for each other. If a couple has a passionate love for each other and combine themselves in the eyes of the Lord they should be considered married, regardless if they have a legal document. There should be no papers, no transaction of money, no crowd, and no clergy that deems someone as married, because the High Priest is the only one who can truly validate a marriage.

Thank you very much for your time. I would love to hear a response as it is important to understand both sides of the argument.

[Quath]

Without the dedication in a marriage, what's to stop the other person walking out on you?

I think that is a weakness of marriage. People get too comfortable and take advantage that their partner will stay with them if they are not happy.

I want my wife to stay with me for as long as she is happy with me. If she can find more happiness elsewhere, why would I want to stop her?

I remember my step grandparents being married for 40-something years before my step grandfather died. But they were miserable. She cussed him out all the time. He went all quiet and learned to ignore her. There was no incentive to change to make their partner happy because they were stuck with each other and they had changed too much in different directions.

[-Revelation-]

Without the dedication in a marriage, what's to stop the other person walking out on you?

I think that is a weakness of marriage. People get too comfortable and take advantage that their partner will stay with them if they are not happy.

I want my wife to stay with me for as long as she is happy with me. If she can find more happiness elsewhere, why would I want to stop her?

I remember my step grandparents being married for 40-something years before my step grandfather died. But they were miserable. She cussed him out all the time. He went all quiet and learned to ignore her. There was no incentive to change to make their partner happy because they were stuck with each other and they had changed too much in different directions.

Firstly, I think that if people are unhappy in a marriage, divorce isn't the first and only step. They should talk and try and find what their problems are. If they really love each other, they will put the other before themselves. If they don't really love each other, they should have been more careful before getting married and never have gotten married in the first place.

It's not that you would want to stop her, but rather that she would want to stop herself. Love isn't just about happiness. Was Jesus happy when he loved the world perfectly? No, he died one of the most vicious deaths available because he loved. Love is about self-giving, not self-taking if you like. When you marry someone, the reason for it wouldn't be that you can exploit them to make yourself happy, but rather to make them happy, and the desire of each of the two is what keeps the relationship going in my view.

In your example, clearly your step-grandparents didn't have good foundations to their marriage. Marriage is more than just a license to look morally good and have sex at the same time.

[99percentatheism]

Promiscuity seems great until you have someone you love and then realize that they could go out and be humping scores of people every night.

All of a sudden it dawns, that virginity until marriage isn't so stupid after all.

[Quath]

Promiscuity seems great until you have someone you love and then realize that they could go out and be humping scores of people every night.

All of a sudden it dawns, that virginity until marriage isn't so stupid after all.

Another way to look at this to to replace "sex" with "hugging." Would it be so horrible if your spouse hugged a lot of people? Would you want a spouse to never hug a person until they got married?

I may be into casual hugging, but sometimes I want a good embrace of love. Doing one doesn't mean you can't enjoy the other.

[connermt]

Promiscuity seems great until you have someone you love and then realize that they could go out and be humping scores of people every night.

All of a sudden it dawns, that virginity until marriage isn't so stupid after all.

Not everyone sees it this way. Some are happy with one's past so long as it has no negative influence on their present and future with themselves.
If we all held each other's past against them, most everyone would be alone and unhappy.

[PREEST]

Really? You think it would better for us to be getting married when we are teenagers? So got intended for teenagers, who's brains having finished developing, to be getting married and having sex? This is absurd!!! The reason people married younger is because they died younger! Or, they were made to. It's not god's intention for young boys and girls to marry. That's disgusting. I guess by this logic god wanted children of 8-10 to start masturbating?

Instead of you preposterous assertion that we should be getting married when we are 14 to stop premarital sex, why don't you consider that sex between two loving adults who aren't married is not evil, wrong or indecent. They love each other. Just because the don't yet have a piece of paper that says that they love each other doesn't mean they should refrain from sex.

If you weren't religious you would not be saying such an absurd thing. Religion makes normal people do strange, absurd and even evil things. Like cutting off the clitoris of a baby girl or the foreskin of a baby boy.

[thepandemicson]

I've always felt that marriage is a man-made construct.

Whenever I was in a relationship, I never felt there was anything wrong with the things we did. As far as I was concerned everything was fine. I didn't need a ritual, or a symbol, or a group of people to acknowledge that we were in fact right in God's eyes. The commitment from a relationship should be more than these things. It should exist by my desire to have the commitment, and nothing else.

I remember one church I was at, where there was a divorced patron who was living with a man for 10+ years. The man decided he wanted to do what he perceived was right in God's eyes and marry her. The pastor refused, essentially stating that her status as a divorced woman made her unsuited for marriage in God's eyes. This was not the decision of some higher power, but of a man who claimed to be God's representative in the matter.

I feel that it is inappropriate for a third party to make a decision on matters between two people and their love life. That should be reserved for them, and them alone.

[Cewakiyelo]

Virginity should be seen as a blessing. Especially to those who are tempted but do not allow their desires to over ride their virtue. Sex has a purpose, bringing life into the world. Sex is the joining of the flesh of two and the child is the proof that the two have united. The two become the one flesh of the child. When two have joined as one flesh they are seen as married in the eyes of God, according to scripture. He is the witness. So to are your neighbors however, it matters not whether those around you acknowledge your marriage. Their lack of acceptance does not undo what has been done or change the fact that God has witnessed the union. Because we must live with mans laws, good counsel would be that, we should seek to formally announce the union with a marriage certificate. In the old testament marriage was see as sexual cohabitation. It is the foundation for common law marriage.

You don't get to try it on to see if you like it. You try it and it's yours for life. Our favorite band is ABC this month but next it is XYZ. This does not work when it comes to marriage and the responsibility you are suppose to shoulder when you claim your mate by having sex with them. It may start as love and lust. But when that fades and changes into work and frustration, too bad. Marriage is not about love. It is about responsibility. For richer or poorer in sickness and health. Marriage is about accepting your spouse as your helpmate. Together you enter into a responsibility not only to each other but, also you children and to God. Your responsibility is to help each other through this trying life. To overcome the challenges and trials together. It is such a big responsibility we should not rush into marriage just because we lust of love the person today. If after years of getting to know them you find you still love and desire them then you would have a better chance upon a lasting marriage.

We seek to chase our desires. Some may say that they are gay and it is normal for them to be attracted to the same sex and they would be right. But what is not right is yielding to their desire when they know it is not what God wants for us. A pedophile could say it is normal for them to lust after children, and they would be right. But that does not make it any less wrong to act upon their desires. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by God because the people made no attempt to control their desires. Living only for their desires and personal pleasures destroyed them. Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt because she acted on her desire to take one last look after being warned not to.

[Cewakiyelo]

I've always felt that marriage is a man-made construct.

Whenever I was in a relationship, I never felt there was anything wrong with the things we did. As far as I was concerned everything was fine. I didn't need a ritual, or a symbol, or a group of people to acknowledge that we were in fact right in God's eyes. The commitment from a relationship should be more than these things. It should exist by my desire to have the commitment, and nothing else.

I remember one church I was at, where there was a divorced patron who was living with a man for 10+ years. The man decided he wanted to do what he perceived was right in God's eyes and marry her. The pastor refused, essentially stating that her status as a divorced woman made her unsuited for marriage in God's eyes. This was not the decision of some higher power, but of a man who claimed to be God's representative in the matter.

I feel that it is inappropriate for a third party to make a decision on matters between two people and their love life. That should be reserved for them, and them alone.

The pastor was doing what was appropriate according to scripture. Jesus tells us that Moses allowed divorce but that in the beginning it was not so. In other words he was saying that divorce was not by God's approval, only that Moses allowed it. Jesus further said that if two people should choose to separate it should be that they either reconcile or remain separated. Still married but separated. And neither party should marry another person lest both be seen as adulterers. That is to say that if a man or woman is separated and they marry someone else they and the person that they marry are committing adultery. A pastor should not oversee a union that would be an adulterous one.

As far as not needing a group or symbol or ritual to acknowledge your union, you are right to a degree. Where you fall short is in abiding with the law of the land. Jesus said we must abide by the laws of the land. If the law of the land says that we need to register our marriage, our union, than we need to do that in order to be following Gods Word. Many say they don't need to formalize their union for anyone, that God knows the truth. But He also sees the truth of not abiding in the law of the land when it comes to marriage. Likewise, because God sees the choice made when two people come together He also sees when they separate. So with or without a certificate of marriage and divorce God sees it as you being married and then divorcing. And as is said in scripture "God hates Divorce." Furthermore, the only reason not to make it formal with ring and paper and witnesses would be if the person was just playing house and wanted to leave the door open for an escape. Or are ashamed by who they are with. We might play house and avoid the financial loss when the relationship goes south by not having a certificate of marriage. But in the end we are still going to be seen as divorced by God, and though we may not pay alimony to our spouse we will be paying it to the Lord Almighty in the end. Which do you think will be cheaper?

[thepandemicson]

Virginity should be seen as a blessing. Especially to those who are tempted but do not allow their desires to over ride their virtue. Sex has a purpose, bringing life into the world. Sex is the joining of the flesh of two and the child is the proof that the two have united. The two become the one flesh of the child. When two have joined as one flesh they are seen as married in the eyes of God, according to scripture. He is the witness. So to are your neighbors however, it matters not whether those around you acknowledge your marriage. Their lack of acceptance does not undo what has been done or change the fact that God has witnessed the union. Because we must live with mans laws, good counsel would be that, we should seek to formally announce the union with a marriage certificate. In the old testament marriage was see as sexual cohabitation. It is the foundation for common law marriage.

You don't get to try it on to see if you like it. You try it and it's yours for life. Our favorite band is ABC this month but next it is XYZ. This does not work when it comes to marriage and the responsibility you are suppose to shoulder when you claim your mate by having sex with them. It may start as love and lust. But when that fades and changes into work and frustration, too bad. Marriage is not about love. It is about responsibility. For richer or poorer in sickness and health. Marriage is about accepting your spouse as your helpmate. Together you enter into a responsibility not only to each other but, also you children and to God. Your responsibility is to help each other through this trying life. To overcome the challenges and trials together. It is such a big responsibility we should not rush into marriage just because we lust of love the person today. If after years of getting to know them you find you still love and desire them then you would have a better chance upon a lasting marriage.

We seek to chase our desires. Some may say that they are gay and it is normal for them to be attracted to the same sex and they would be right. But what is not right is yielding to their desire when they know it is not what God wants for us. A pedophile could say it is normal for them to lust after children, and they would be right. But that does not make it any less wrong to act upon their desires. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by God because the people made no attempt to control their desires. Living only for their desires and personal pleasures destroyed them. Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt because she acted on her desire to take one last look after being warned not to.

I disagree with this in several areas. First, this is really dependent on the individuals in question. If they aren't religious, then marriage isn't based on what God wants, but what these two individuals (or in some cases, a number greater than two) desire from the union. In this day and age, we do not have some deity speaking to us directly and telling us what they want from us. The closest thing we have is our own conscience, and barring that, someone who may claim to be a representative of God.

We cannot assume that one is incapable of changing his or her mind on how they perceive marriage and sexual union. People have an uncanny ability to change drastically given enough time, or circumstance. People can change their views all throughout their lives about any given subject, should they feel the desire to study up on it. A person could be living a life of casual sex and relationships, believing that nothing exists worthwhile that could be permanent for himself or herself. But then one person can enter his or her life and completely change his or her outlook on love and sex. Likewise, a marriage from the outside could seem happy and lasting, but then one member may leave, and the other is left with a shattered view of love and permanency. People are too diverse for everyone to think completely alike in terms of love and relationships.

Nobody knows what God wants for us, if God exists. If somebody were to tell me they knew what God wanted for me, I would find them to be arrogant in presuming to know the desires of a deity. I don't think any all-powerful deity is going to be preoccupied with details such as who I'm choosing for my partner. If I were gay, I think that the only intolerance I would face would not be stemming from a God proclaiming to be love and acceptance incarnate, but from people.

I do agree that pedophilia is wrong and immoral to pursue, but that's also because of the society I live in and morals I've been personally instilled with all my life. If I lived my life by the bible alone, without the altered views instilled by my parents and culture, then I would think it was alright to pursue love, sex, and marriage with girls ages 12 and up. This is where personal interpretation of what is right and wrong come in to fill in the gaps, and help me work more towards being what I perceive as a moral man.