is humanism being carried to extreme?

[charles brough]

We refer to our Secular Humanist belief system as "a self evident truth," but how can "truth" change? We are becoming ever more humane. We are now moving to prevent the euthanasia of our over-population of dogs and cats; we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on transgender operations for convicted criminals; we permit welfare mothers to keep on having more children; and we allow someone to produce an anti-Islamic film that causes death and destruction across the Near East.

So, what will happen if we, in our civilization, keep carrying the humaneness further and further? In the Hindu civilization almost two thousand years ago, humanism became so extreme that practitioners of one of its major sect's, the Jainists, swept the path ahead when walking in order to assure they did not step on and harm some insect. Is that where we are headed?

[Choir Loft]

We refer to our Secular Humanist belief system as "a self evident truth," but how can "truth" change? We are becoming ever more humane. We are now moving to prevent the euthanasia of our over-population of dogs and cats; we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on transgender operations for convicted criminals; we permit welfare mothers to keep on having more children; and we allow someone to produce an anti-Islamic film that causes death and destruction across the Near East.

So, what will happen if we, in our civilization, keep carrying the humaneness further and further? In the Hindu civilization almost two thousand years ago, humanism became so extreme that practitioners of one of its major sect's, the Jainists, swept the path ahead when walking in order to assure they did not step on and harm some insect. Is that where we are headed?

Truth is that which conforms to what is.

Humanism is a philosophy of thought which rejects religious beliefs and centers on humans and their values, capacities and worth.

Humanist 'truth', if it is to be based upon human values, must of necessity be changeable. It changes with the advance of technology and philosophy, it changes with social values of the greater group and it changes with the condition of prosperity or poverty.

Your question about self-evident truth applies only to a member of a specific group. Members of a given group accept the group 'truth' as part of the culture. These values do not have to make sense, be coherent or consistent. Members of a different group may hold different values to be important. One group eats pork, for example, while another (Muslim) does not. Therefore your quest for unchangeable truth in man will never reach its goal. There is none. Not really.

For example, you state that we are becoming more humane. Who is we? Americans? Surely you jest.

America is the greatest purveyor of violence and aggression on the planet. We are guilty of war crimes, illegal and unjust invasions of nations that have done us no wrong and reward high financial crime and treason with million dollar bonuses. Yet we lie to ourselves by saying we love honesty and justice.

Our citizens are stripped of their liberty and placed under the yoke of fascism which daily grows heavier. We embrace it with our deeds while all the time claiming to uphold the principles of democracy.

Americans have a group fantasy about themselves that matches exactly with your 'self-evident truth'. We are jingoist to the max yet tell ourselves we are peace loving. We have practiced genocide within our own borders, yet condemn it abroad. We have enslaved an entire race, yet claim we love freedom. We drop atomic bombs on people, yet claim its a crime for someone else to build these weapons. Hypocrites? Not us. We are truthful about ourselves to the bone. Yes we are.

You want self-evident truth? Try this one on for size. If we want something we steal and kill and destroy until we get it (oil?). Once we have it we congratulate ourselves on how brave and honorable we were when we did the deed. We can no longer manufacture wealth, so we steal it. Once done we create patriotic events to remind ourselves how great and wonderful we are as a people. The only self-evident truth I see here is American hypocrisy, lies and self-delusion.

I must be missing something in your post. Perhaps you are referring to another nation. A better nation. A nation that is true to some sort of code of honor that never really existed in the first place.

The only self-evident truth I see here is the truth of the animal kingdom. Survival of the fittest - or the one with the best gun. There is no truth or honor in our 'civilization' only organized murder and theft. What will happen in the end? Somebody bigger and tougher will come along and steal what we've stolen from someone else. Thats self-evident truth for you. That's the truth of the street bully and the only truth that makes any sense to 'civilized' men.

If you want a 'self-evident' truth that does not change, go to the cemetery. That place is full of unchangeable human truth. Its called death and its pretty unchangeable and permanent. No hypocrisy either. Everybody there is honest to the bone - what's left of them anyway. It stinks too.

Human culture ends in one place always. Every time. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your 'truth'.

If God does not judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[charles brough]

We refer to our Secular Humanist belief system as "a self evident truth," but how can "truth" change? We are becoming ever more humane. We are now moving to prevent the euthanasia of our over-population of dogs and cats; we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on transgender operations for convicted criminals; we permit welfare mothers to keep on having more children; and we allow someone to produce an anti-Islamic film that causes death and destruction across the Near East.

So, what will happen if we, in our civilization, keep carrying the humaneness further and further? In the Hindu civilization almost two thousand years ago, humanism became so extreme that practitioners of one of its major sect's, the Jainists, swept the path ahead when walking in order to assure they did not step on and harm some insect. Is that where we are headed?

Truth is that which conforms to what is. Humanism is a philosophy of thought which rejects religious beliefs and centers on humans and their values, capacities and worth.
Humanist 'truth', if it is to be based upon human values, must of necessity be changeable. It changes with the advance of technology and philosophy, it changes with social values of the greater group and it changes with the condition of prosperity or poverty.

Your question about self-evident truth applies only to a member of a specific group. Members of a given group accept the group 'truth' as part of the culture. These values do not have to make sense, be coherent or consistent. Members of a different group may hold different values to be important. One group eats pork, for example, while another (Muslim) does not. Therefore your quest for unchangeable truth in man will never reach its goal. There is none. Not really.

For example, you state that we are becoming more humane. Who is we? Americans? Surely you jest.

America is the greatest purveyor of violence and aggression on the planet. We are guilty of war crimes, illegal and unjust invasions of nations that have done us no wrong and reward high financial crime and treason with million dollar bonuses. Yet we lie to ourselves by saying we love honesty and justice.

Our citizens are stripped of their liberty and placed under the yoke of fascism which daily grows heavier. We embrace it with our deeds while all the time claiming to uphold the principles of democracy.

Americans have a group fantasy about themselves that matches exactly with your 'self-evident truth'. We are jingoist to the max yet tell ourselves we are peace loving. We have practiced genocide within our own borders, yet condemn it abroad. We have enslaved an entire race, yet claim we love freedom. We drop atomic bombs on people, yet claim its a crime for someone else to build these weapons. Hypocrites? Not us. We are truthful about ourselves to the bone. Yes we are.

You want self-evident truth? Try this one on for size. If we want something we steal and kill and destroy until we get it (oil?). Once we have it we congratulate ourselves on how brave and honorable we were when we did the deed. We can no longer manufacture wealth, so we steal it. Once done we create patriotic events to remind ourselves how great and wonderful we are as a people. The only self-evident truth I see here is American hypocrisy, lies and self-delusion.

I must be missing something in your post. Perhaps you are referring to another nation. A better nation. A nation that is true to some sort of code of honor that never really existed in the first place.

The only self-evident truth I see here is the truth of the animal kingdom. Survival of the fittest - or the one with the best gun. There is no truth or honor in our 'civilization' only organized murder and theft. What will happen in the end? Somebody bigger and tougher will come along and steal what we've stolen from someone else. Thats self-evident truth for you. That's the truth of the street bully and the only truth that makes any sense to 'civilized' men.

If you want a 'self-evident' truth that does not change, go to the cemetery. That place is full of unchangeable human truth. Its called death and its pretty unchangeable and permanent. No hypocrisy either. Everybody there is honest to the bone - what's left of them anyway. It stinks too.

Human culture ends in one place always. Every time. Perhaps you should look elsewhere for your 'truth'. If God does not judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.. . but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Apparently you do not recognize that surrounding a word with quite markes is a way to indicate it is what others believe, in this case, including yourself, but not the speaker (myself). You say "truth is what is" when who is to judge "what is" when all differ and it constantly changes? Your secular-Christian compromised beliefs may differ from that of a Hindu, but that does not mean you have "the truth" while he does not. It only means that your beliefs are more scientifically accurate (or, less inaccurate). Also, my mention of "liberty" being "a self-evident truth," was a reference to our society's secular doctrine as it is pulled right out of the US Constitution.

But certainly, I agree that our nation employs war and every possible means to impose its secular ideology on the world. But this is also occuring with a trend to impractical over-humanism in such ways as I mentioned above. It is now "right" to allow films being made that insult the faith of others. It is therefore a "right" to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

[Choir Loft]

But certainly, I agree that our nation employs war and every possible means to impose its secular ideology on the world. But this is also occuring with a trend to impractical over-humanism in such ways as I mentioned above. It is now "right" to allow films being made that insult the faith of others. It is therefore a "right" to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

As I wrote at length earlier, there is no such thing as humanist self-evident truth. All cultural truths are relevant and subjective to a social myth. Truth implies a standard that does not change. I don't even understand why you used the expression.

Truth may be constant with regard to atomic reactions, but not with people. The only constant one can pin human values on, as I wrote before, is the grave. It doesn't move or change once the worms have done their work.

I'm glad we agree on the American effort to impose its ideology upon the rest of the world. American hegemony was successfully extorted upon the world after WWII, but that empire is now crashing down around our ears. History has a way of turning principled dreams and visions of global human compatibility into nothing more grandiose than a battle between ant colonies.

Time to seek another dream.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[charles brough]

But certainly, I agree that our nation employs war and every possible means to impose its secular ideology on the world. But this is also occuring with a trend to impractical over-humanism in such ways as I mentioned above. It is now "right" to allow films being made that insult the faith of others. It is therefore a "right" to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

As I wrote at length earlier, there is no such thing as humanist self-evident truth. All cultural truths are relevant and subjective to a social myth. Truth implies a standard that does not change. I don't even understand why you used the expression. Truth may be constant with regard to atomic reactions, but not with people. The only constant one can pin human values on, as I wrote before, is the grave. It doesn't move or change once the worms have done their work.

Your objection is unclear to me. One of the doctrines of Secular Humanism is that it is a "self-evident truth that we have inalienable rights." You seem to view that as I do, that is, as a doctrine instead of a "truth." I view "truth" as an invalid concept left over from the old religions---like "holy," "sacrament," and "soul." Scientific understand advances by bringing us a more accurate understanding of ourselves and the world. It never achieves any eternal "truth." Using "truth" assumes that the person is stating something forever complete and valid when, actually, it is just something he wants others to believe.

I'm glad we agree on the American effort to impose its ideology upon the rest of the world. American hegemony was successfully extorted upon the world after WWII, but that empire is now crashing down around our ears. History has a way of turning principled dreams and visions of global human compatibility into nothing more grandiose than a battle between ant colonies.

. . .very well stated! It isn't working well anymore. The outlook is getting gloomy, and people are feeling it---even those unable or unwilling to put it into words. As stress builds up, people begin to crack under the strain and tension. Some go berserk and kill people, others get depressed, cannot sleep at night or kill themselves. Still others become doomsday-preppers, and many of the rest become addicted to whatever gadget, pill, game, or vice gives them some relief.

Time to seek another dream, but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

I don't think it is that remote. It is just a matter of thinking and finding out what is needed. I've done a lot on that subject and could use some feedback.

[Mr.Badham]

We refer to our Secular Humanist belief system as "a self evident truth," but how can "truth" change? We are becoming ever more humane. We are now moving to prevent the euthanasia of our over-population of dogs and cats; we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on transgender operations for convicted criminals; we permit welfare mothers to keep on having more children; and we allow someone to produce an anti-Islamic film that causes death and destruction across the Near East.

So, what will happen if we, in our civilization, keep carrying the humaneness further and further? In the Hindu civilization almost two thousand years ago, humanism became so extreme that practitioners of one of its major sect's, the Jainists, swept the path ahead when walking in order to assure they did not step on and harm some insect. Is that where we are headed?

I think you have to ask yourself why these things are, rather than ask where they are going. Why are people moving to prevent the euthanasia of dogs and cats? Couldn't it just be that they love dogs and cats?

Ask yourself this; If that convicted criminal had their "transgender operation" earlier, would they still have committed the crime? Could it be that their gender identity issues are what caused them to feel as though they are outside of society? It's a question of what our obligations are as a society. If we are going to lock people up, are we not obligated to take care of them? And how do you define "Care".

There will always be poor women having more children than they can care for. You have to ask yourself if you want to live in the kind of country that lets them starve, or forces them to get their tubes tied, or just gives them enough money to live. The United States is the richest country in the world, why would you let people starve just because they are stupid?

Islamists are going to get offended. It's what they do. They're begging for an excuse to burn something, or kill someone. All you can do is ensure that your country doesn't become like that.

If you want to sweep ants off the sidewalk, you can. Be happy you live in a country that allows you the choice.

Poor RichardP. Doesn't even appreciate the fact that he couldn't say those things if he lived in a country of his own making.

[charles brough]

The difference is all in our separate perspectives. You are a product of the times and see no reason to put these times in historical perspective or any interest in where it leads. To me, there is more to the subject of right and wrong than just what people now feel and believe. It has always seemed important to me to escape from subjectivity enough to post something different in the philosophy or science forums.

[Mr.Badham]

The difference is all in our separate perspectives. You are a product of the times and see no reason to put these times in historical perspective or any interest in where it leads. To me, there is more to the subject of right and wrong than just what people now feel and believe. It has always seemed important to me to escape from subjectivity enough to post something different in the philosophy or science forums.

Ah yes, the old slippery slope. Fear the slope. Except in this case we're afraid that everyone is becoming too nice. Usually the abscence of objective morals means that everyone is going to start killing and raping each other. What a relief.

If you want to start a campaign to kill all unwanted dogs and cats, you have that right. All you have to do is convince people that you are right. If you want to stop all the poor people from having kids, all you have to do is convince everyone that you are right. Try it. If you fail, maybe you should consider that possibility that you are wrong. I'm just saying!

[Choir Loft]

The difference is all in our separate perspectives. You are a product of the times and see no reason to put these times in historical perspective or any interest in where it leads. To me, there is more to the subject of right and wrong than just what people now feel and believe. It has always seemed important to me to escape from subjectivity enough to post something different in the philosophy or science forums.

Which brings me back to the only constant in humanist philosophy; the grave. If every man does what seems right to him, then there is nothing common and nothing consistent to all except death.

Times and epochs and cultural arguments are all the same with regard to human perspective. The law of the gun decides behavior. It's cross cultural and extends through time. Survival of the fittest - or the best armed as it were, is the only human constant because it leads always to that lonesome narrow valley.

One cannot mix a philosophy of human kindness and survival of the fittest in the same glass. It's like trying to mix oil and water. It can't be done. The fact of death rises to the top always.

You cannot mix philosophy and science because human thought and behavior cannot be extrapolated to a mathematical theorem.

There are high principles and low ones operative in human behavior. Literature may hold good character (bravery, self-scrifice, honesty) in high regard, but if truth be told man's wickedness more often than not rules the historic record. High principles are taught to children so that they may more easily be persuaded in adult life to defend a wicked empire (America, for example. Democracy is the high principle, but fascism is actually practiced.).

Empires are never built by honest humble and meek men.

Self-delusion and fantasy regarding human capacity is the realm of children and philosophers. Power, intimidation and murder are the facts of life. The greatest frustration of all is that everything ends in death.

Ghandi believed that there was some sort of sorting out process working in history and that the good would always prevail. Unfortunately the sorting out process always involved shedding blood. The law of death raises its head once again. 'Good' men are always called to perform heinous acts for the sake of empire, making them criminals in the process. There is no such thing as human good.

If you are looking for a philosophical base to address in forums of twenty first century America it is only this; that the cultural basis for law, commerce and morality has eroded to the point where the American empire is in a stage of collapse. Not "the verge of" as many predict. The process has begun.

That brings me to a final supposition.
What is the philosophical basis of the collapse of empire?
I'd be very interested to read that argument.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

Mr. Badham wrote: Poor RichardP. Doesn't even appreciate the fact that he couldn't say those things if he lived in a country of his own making.

Sounds like someone is still dreaming about the illusion of freedom in America.

WAKE UP!

There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament. You can lay truth after truth before his feet. You can qualify your every position with cold hard irrefutable data. You can plead and scream and raise veritable hell, but before he will ever listen, he must first become aware of his own dire circumstances. As long as he views himself as safe and secure, as long as he imagines his chains to be wings, he will see no reason to question the validity of the world around him, and he will certainly never invest himself into changing his own deluded destiny.
- Source unknown

"So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity."
- MEIN KAMPF Adolph Hitler

The pattern of German totalitarianism is a perfect framework within which to answer your charge. If a man raises his voice, he is only one and his words have no meaning. The words and the man are not a threat to anyone and he is left to himself. When others join their attitudes and words and actions to this man the group becomes dangerous and offensive to the established government.

Transit the argument to America and our supposed freedom of speech.

According to the constitution, citizens have the right of assembly to protest. In actual fact, protests are redirected to remote locations and times when their activity (and word) is negligible. In NYC, for example, the Occupy Movement was split up by authorities and moved to small parks and niches in town where they would not interfere with normal commerce. By definition a protest is meant to do just that in order to get the attention of the general population. Instead any and every protest is cloaked and labeled by the media as the expression of the lunatic fringe. If demonstrators do not obey these restrictions they are met with violent and immediate reactive force.

Americans are NOT free to express their opinions. Am I the only one that writes such things? If you wake up, you'll realize I'm not. Your remarks suggest that you're not old enough to remember a time when the United States was not at war, when people were free to move about the country without governmental restrictions and when a man could conduct his business without codes, and laws and ordinances standing in his way. That world no longer exists.

You may retire to your fantasy, sir. When you wake up you'll not be able to say you weren't told.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...