is humanism being carried to extreme?

[charles brough]

We refer to our Secular Humanist belief system as "a self evident truth," but how can "truth" change? We are becoming ever more humane. We are now moving to prevent the euthanasia of our over-population of dogs and cats; we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on transgender operations for convicted criminals; we permit welfare mothers to keep on having more children; and we allow someone to produce an anti-Islamic film that causes death and destruction across the Near East.

So, what will happen if we, in our civilization, keep carrying the humaneness further and further? In the Hindu civilization almost two thousand years ago, humanism became so extreme that practitioners of one of its major sect's, the Jainists, swept the path ahead when walking in order to assure they did not step on and harm some insect. Is that where we are headed?

[Mr.Badham]

Mr. Badham wrote: Poor RichardP. Doesn't even appreciate the fact that he couldn't say those things if he lived in a country of his own making.

Sounds like someone is still dreaming about the illusion of freedom in America.

WAKE UP!

There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament. You can lay truth after truth before his feet. You can qualify your every position with cold hard irrefutable data. You can plead and scream and raise veritable hell, but before he will ever listen, he must first become aware of his own dire circumstances. As long as he views himself as safe and secure, as long as he imagines his chains to be wings, he will see no reason to question the validity of the world around him, and he will certainly never invest himself into changing his own deluded destiny.
- Source unknown

"So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity."
- MEIN KAMPF Adolph Hitler

The pattern of German totalitarianism is a perfect framework within which to answer your charge. If a man raises his voice, he is only one and his words have no meaning. The words and the man are not a threat to anyone and he is left to himself. When others join their attitudes and words and actions to this man the group becomes dangerous and offensive to the established government.

Transit the argument to America and our supposed freedom of speech.

According to the constitution, citizens have the right of assembly to protest. In actual fact, protests are redirected to remote locations and times when their activity (and word) is negligible. In NYC, for example, the Occupy Movement was split up by authorities and moved to small parks and niches in town where they would not interfere with normal commerce. By definition a protest is meant to do just that in order to get the attention of the general population. Instead any and every protest is cloaked and labeled by the media as the expression of the lunatic fringe. If demonstrators do not obey these restrictions they are met with violent and immediate reactive force.

Americans are NOT free to express their opinions. Am I the only one that writes such things? If you wake up, you'll realize I'm not. Your remarks suggest that you're not old enough to remember a time when the United States was not at war, when people were free to move about the country without governmental restrictions and when a man could conduct his business without codes, and laws and ordinances standing in his way. That world no longer exists.

You may retire to your fantasy, sir. When you wake up you'll not be able to say you weren't told.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don't you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn't do what they were told to do. That doesn't happen any more.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That's where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn't allowed any more.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

You've heard of the "witch hunts"? They don't happen any more.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I'm glad these are our problems. I wouldn't want the problems of yesterday.

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won't continue to change for the better. But yes, you're right, there is a long way to go till it's perfect.

You're one of the good ones. Keep up the good fight richardP.

[Mr.Badham]

Mr. Badham wrote: Poor RichardP. Doesn't even appreciate the fact that he couldn't say those things if he lived in a country of his own making.

Sounds like someone is still dreaming about the illusion of freedom in America.

WAKE UP!

There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament. You can lay truth after truth before his feet. You can qualify your every position with cold hard irrefutable data. You can plead and scream and raise veritable hell, but before he will ever listen, he must first become aware of his own dire circumstances. As long as he views himself as safe and secure, as long as he imagines his chains to be wings, he will see no reason to question the validity of the world around him, and he will certainly never invest himself into changing his own deluded destiny.
- Source unknown

"So long as they concern themselves with their religious problems the State does not concern itself with them. But so soon as they attempt by any means whatsoever-- by letters, Encyclica, or otherwise-- to arrogate to themselves rights which belong to the State alone we shall force them back into their proper spiritual, pastoral activity."
- MEIN KAMPF Adolph Hitler

The pattern of German totalitarianism is a perfect framework within which to answer your charge. If a man raises his voice, he is only one and his words have no meaning. The words and the man are not a threat to anyone and he is left to himself. When others join their attitudes and words and actions to this man the group becomes dangerous and offensive to the established government.

Transit the argument to America and our supposed freedom of speech.

According to the constitution, citizens have the right of assembly to protest. In actual fact, protests are redirected to remote locations and times when their activity (and word) is negligible. In NYC, for example, the Occupy Movement was split up by authorities and moved to small parks and niches in town where they would not interfere with normal commerce. By definition a protest is meant to do just that in order to get the attention of the general population. Instead any and every protest is cloaked and labeled by the media as the expression of the lunatic fringe. If demonstrators do not obey these restrictions they are met with violent and immediate reactive force.

Americans are NOT free to express their opinions. Am I the only one that writes such things? If you wake up, you'll realize I'm not. Your remarks suggest that you're not old enough to remember a time when the United States was not at war, when people were free to move about the country without governmental restrictions and when a man could conduct his business without codes, and laws and ordinances standing in his way. That world no longer exists.

You may retire to your fantasy, sir. When you wake up you'll not be able to say you weren't told.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don't you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn't do what they were told to do. That doesn't happen any more.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That's where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn't allowed any more.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

You've heard of the "witch hunts"? They don't happen any more.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I'm glad these are our problems. I wouldn't want the problems of yesterday.

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won't continue to change for the better. But yes, you're right, there is a long way to go till it's perfect.

You're one of the good ones. Keep up the good fight richardP.

[charles brough]

The difference is all in our separate perspectives. You are a product of the times and see no reason to put these times in historical perspective or any interest in where it leads. To me, there is more to the subject of right and wrong than just what people now feel and believe. It has always seemed important to me to escape from subjectivity enough to post something different in the philosophy or science forums.

Which brings me back to the only constant in humanist philosophy; the grave. If every man does what seems right to him, then there is nothing common and nothing consistent to all except death.

Times and epochs and cultural arguments are all the same with regard to human perspective. The law of the gun decides behavior. It's cross cultural and extends through time. Survival of the fittest - or the best armed as it were, is the only human constant because it leads always to that lonesome narrow valley.

One cannot mix a philosophy of human kindness and survival of the fittest in the same glass. It's like trying to mix oil and water. It can't be done. The fact of death rises to the top always.

You cannot mix philosophy and science because human thought and behavior cannot be extrapolated to a mathematical theorem.

There are high principles and low ones operative in human behavior. Literature may hold good character (bravery, self-sacrifice, honesty) in high regard, but if truth be told man's wickedness more often than not rules the historic record. High principles are taught to children so that they may more easily be persuaded in adult life to defend a wicked empire (America, for example. Democracy is the high principle, but fascism is actually practiced.).

Empires are never built by honest humble and meek men.

Self-delusion and fantasy regarding human capacity is the realm of children and philosophers. Power, intimidation and murder are the facts of life. The greatest frustration of all is that everything ends in death.

Ghandi believed that there was some sort of sorting out process working in history and that the good would always prevail. Unfortunately the sorting out process always involved shedding blood. The law of death raises its head once again. 'Good' men are always called to perform heinous acts for the sake of empire, making them criminals in the process. There is no such thing as human good.

If you are looking for a philosophical base to address in forums of twenty first century America it is only this; that the cultural basis for law, commerce and morality has eroded to the point where the American empire is in a stage of collapse. Not "the verge of" as many predict. The process has begun.

As you indicate, our civilization is in decline, as has been historically common to ones towards the end of their empire period. Your emotional outrage at it and loathing for it is a common effect of the decline. When people become so stressed and antagonistic to it (such as anarchists and religious reactionaries) that they cannot bear it any longer, a new ideology arises out of a social evolutionary process and people swing over to it. Then, a new civilization begins to take shape....or, barbarians take over and begin to reform and rebuild it.

What is the philosophical basis of the collapse of empire?
I'd be very interested to read that argument.

An answer based on an objective interpretation of social science data would be perhaps a better basis for answering the question than philosophy. I answer it this way: the very ideological system a civilization is based on enables people to progress (i.ae., build better technology and general culture). But eventually that progress outgrows the old ideology and people drift away and the old faith divides and redevides. Finally, people have so many beliefs that people cannot agree on anything anymore. The result is that social problems mount and the old system that once worked, no longer does.

[Choir Loft]

You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don't you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn't do what they were told to do. That doesn't happen any more.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That's where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn't allowed any more.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

You've heard of the "witch hunts"? They don't happen any more.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I'm glad these are our problems. I wouldn't want the problems of yesterday.

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won't continue to change for the better. But yes, you're right, there is a long way to go till it's perfect.

You're one of the good ones. Keep up the good fight richardP.

Points of rebuttal....
You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don\'t you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn\'t do what they were told to do. That doesn\'t happen any more.

WAS? Doesn't happen any more? It certainly DOES happen - IN AMERICA! It IS happening, HERE and NOW!

My wife and I stumbled upon a rescue group for escaped slaves IN CENTRAL FLORIDA early this year (2012). We are assisting in our small way. Not dog & cat rescue. Not whale rescue. Human rescue. Slave rescue.

This is an unmentionable subject in America, mostly because we mistakenly hold to the illusion that we are above all that sort of thing. We aren't. We just think we are. It's part of the American fantasy - like Disneyland. Disneyland, America is not.

Women and children are being smuggled into the United States, marked/branded on the face by their owners for recognition should they attempt escape, and are used mostly for prostitution but also for other work. My wife and I got involved with the organization when they asked our help for a woman who had made her second escape to freedom. The more I learn about this the more disgusted I get with our pretentious self-righteous American society. THE SYSTEM SUPPORTS SLAVERY simply by refusing to recognize it exists. We have learned that pockets of well financed slavery exist in every city in the United States. Wherever you are, dear reader, your butt is sitting squarely in the middle of it. Think about it. Please.

I've just described physical slavery. What you might call traditional historical slavery. The visible kind.

There is also economic slavery. The chains are invisible, but they're still there. It forms the basic foundation of American fascism. Benito Mussolini defined fascism as a system of government that is influenced by large corporations, the military and special political interest groups rather than the citizenry. Does this sound familiar?

The forms of American economic hegemony include predatory and usurious banking practices (Wells Fargo was cited several million dollars fine a year ago), artifically low wages, governmental restrictions upon labor unions and unjust labor laws (as in right-to-work states). All of that and more exists within the borders of the United States. Externally, America employs foreign labor at abusively low wages. The Nike company is one of the greatest offenders. So is Apple. Their workers are paid pennies while consumers are required to pay an obscene amount of money for the product. It could be argued that a man can buy a different brand, but will that stop the problem? It could, if only Americans were willing to do so. Are we willing? What do you think?

Fancy shoes, glitzy electronic toys, shiny new cars, big houses and expensive vacations are all examples of the steel that binds the world in the chains of American economic hegemony. These are the chains that the enemies of America hate. The fantasy and the lie that Americans like to tell themselves is that they don't exist. America no longer manufactures its own wealth as it once did. Once upon a time we were the envy of the industrial world. Today we steal wealth by means of international banking, military conquest or by enslaving foreign factory workers. Everyone in the world except Americans know this truth! It isn't the government that lies to us so much as the lies we tell ourselves.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That\'s where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn\'t allowed any more.

It still happens, yes it does. It happens a lot and it happens in America. There are numerous womens groups that will testify that although law forbids it - it continues. The American culture of male domination by means of violence has not abated one dot. If you believe otherwise, you are doing yourself a disservice. Google it.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

They are indeed allowed to vote, as are ethnic groups; mostly. The argument is academic, since votes are no longer tabulated justly. The counters make the difference, not the voters. Attend ANY meeting of the Republican or Democratic party. DO IT! None of those people will bite you, I promise. I have attended such meetings. Its an education. Try it some time. Don't just sit there at your computer. I challenge you to DO IT!

Folks there will give you a long impassioned speech about voting tabulation irregularities. One man, one vote? One woman, one vote? Give me a break. Please. That's not how its done. There's an avalanche of cheating going on. Don't give me that rubbish about how honest the voting is because women and ethnic groups are 'allowed' to vote. In south Florida, blacks and hispanics are restricted from voting. (source: NAACP) Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Florida isn't unique in that regard either.
Your high school civics class leaves much to be desired. You've been lied to, buddy. Don't feel bad. We've all been lied to and for a long time.

You\'ve heard of the "witch hunts"? They don\'t happen any more.
No one is being burned at the stake - literally, but spiritual persecution is rabid. It is greater and more widespread than it was in the town of Salem, Mass. three hundred years ago. If you deny it or aren't aware of it you are quite misinformed.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I\'m glad these are our problems. I wouldn\'t want the problems of yesterday.

You are entirely correct regarding your list of present problems and self-inflicted social injustice. Yesterdays problems, however, are not extinct as I've pointed out. They've been given new names and appended to our new ones. We aren't better as a society, we're worse. There is absolutely no evidence that the United States as a culture or as a country has improved or changed its murderous unjust and thieving ways. On the other hand, there is ample evidence that a new kind of nationalistic militarism has been created - a form of fascism that is uniquely American. In point of fact, Americans are proud of the new fascist police state we've created. Have you seen people being interviewed in the airport after having been groped and fondled by the TSA? Most are glad of it and have enjoyed the experience. Land of the free? No way.
[Excuse me while I puke.]

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won\'t continue to change for the better. But yes, you\'re right, there is a long way to go till it\'s perfect.

Your point is dulled by misinformation (media and government 'designer lies'), wishful thinking, cultural stereotypes, propaganda and good old fashioned advertising(*). I understand your point of view, however. I really do. When I was a young fool in high school I pinned an American flag on my bedroom wall. A real patriot. I was deluded, properly programmed, and uninformed about the real world, as were my teachers. After HS I went to college and continued to fly the flag even though I began to meet people who had real good reasons for doubting the honesty of our government and the direction our country was headed. After graduating from that 2 year college I completed a six year hitch in the military (1968-1974).

(*) Mark Twain said that American advertising was pure magic. It can make you buy things you don't need with money you don't have.

Ever see the movie STARSHIP TROOPERS? In that movie, the rights and benefits of citizenship would not accrue to anyone unless they had completed military service. In my opinion, that's the way it should be. No voting, no benefits, no driver's license, no right to own property, nothing unless an obligatory minimum of two years community service is completed. I have personally spent my entire adult life in community service, so I think I've EARNED the right to criticize.

While in the military I got an education on how the real world works. It was an eye opener! I left the military and never flew the flag again, not on my clothing, on my car or on my house. I do not pledge allegiance to the flag. I'm a veteran with an honorable discharge and I do not support the troops because I know what they're really doing. I remember the day Saigon fell and was never so ashamed of anything in my life. I burned my uniforms that day.

The government of the United States and the culture for which it stands is not something to be proud of or a thing deserving of support in any way shape or form by any reasonable liberty loving man. Know this - that THIS IS my country and I am determined to point out its lack of justice toward every ordinary citizen every chance I get.
I have earned the right to do so and if you are a law abiding tax paying citizen, so have you.

No positive future is possible without such action, education and counter-propaganda. Nothing good will happen until we as a people and a culture understand the depth of our depravity and the loss of so much of what was once good about America. It was never perfect, but it was pretty good - once. There was hope - once. There was the bright possibility of a good future for our countrymen - once. Not now. Not today. It's not Obama's fault or Bush's fault either. The fault is squarely in our own laps.

It's time for all of us to admit what's wrong and that through the years we've approved of it, go back to square one, and reinvent the wheel.

To answer your final statement, I'm not a good guy. I'm just real pissed off.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

What is the philosophical basis of the collapse of empire?
I'd be very interested to read that argument.

An answer based on an objective interpretation of social science data would be perhaps a better basis for answering the question than philosophy. I answer it this way: the very ideological system a civilization is based on enables people to progress (i.ae., build better technology and general culture). But eventually that progress outgrows the old ideology and people drift away and the old faith divides and redevides. Finally, people have so many beliefs that people cannot agree on anything anymore. The result is that social problems mount and the old system that once worked, no longer does.

That's a good short definition. You could probably write a book on the expanded thesis.

[Mr.Badham]

You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don't you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn't do what they were told to do. That doesn't happen any more.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That's where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn't allowed any more.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

You've heard of the "witch hunts"? They don't happen any more.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I'm glad these are our problems. I wouldn't want the problems of yesterday.

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won't continue to change for the better. But yes, you're right, there is a long way to go till it's perfect.

You're one of the good ones. Keep up the good fight richardP.

Points of rebuttal....
You do realize that there was a time of slavery in America, don\'t you? Like, actual slaves that would be whipped to death if they didn\'t do what they were told to do. That doesn\'t happen any more.

WAS? Doesn't happen any more? It certainly DOES happen - IN AMERICA! It IS happening, HERE and NOW!

My wife and I stumbled upon a rescue group for escaped slaves IN CENTRAL FLORIDA early this year (2012). We are assisting in our small way. Not dog & cat rescue. Not whale rescue. Human rescue. Slave rescue.

This is an unmentionable subject in America, mostly because we mistakenly hold to the illusion that we are above all that sort of thing. We aren't. We just think we are. It's part of the American fantasy - like Disneyland. Disneyland, America is not.

Women and children are being smuggled into the United States, marked/branded on the face by their owners for recognition should they attempt escape, and are used mostly for prostitution but also for other work. My wife and I got involved with the organization when they asked our help for a woman who had made her second escape to freedom. The more I learn about this the more disgusted I get with our pretentious self-righteous American society. THE SYSTEM SUPPORTS SLAVERY simply by refusing to recognize it exists. We have learned that pockets of well financed slavery exist in every city in the United States. Wherever you are, dear reader, your butt is sitting squarely in the middle of it. Think about it. Please.

I've just described physical slavery. What you might call traditional historical slavery. The visible kind.

There is also economic slavery. The chains are invisible, but they're still there. It forms the basic foundation of American fascism. Benito Mussolini defined fascism as a system of government that is influenced by large corporations, the military and special political interest groups rather than the citizenry. Does this sound familiar?

The forms of American economic hegemony include predatory and usurious banking practices (Wells Fargo was cited several million dollars fine a year ago), artifically low wages, governmental restrictions upon labor unions and unjust labor laws (as in right-to-work states). All of that and more exists within the borders of the United States. Externally, America employs foreign labor at abusively low wages. The Nike company is one of the greatest offenders. So is Apple. Their workers are paid pennies while consumers are required to pay an obscene amount of money for the product. It could be argued that a man can buy a different brand, but will that stop the problem? It could, if only Americans were willing to do so. Are we willing? What do you think?

Fancy shoes, glitzy electronic toys, shiny new cars, big houses and expensive vacations are all examples of the steel that binds the world in the chains of American economic hegemony. These are the chains that the enemies of America hate. The fantasy and the lie that Americans like to tell themselves is that they don't exist. America no longer manufactures its own wealth as it once did. Once upon a time we were the envy of the industrial world. Today we steal wealth by means of international banking, military conquest or by enslaving foreign factory workers. Everyone in the world except Americans know this truth! It isn't the government that lies to us so much as the lies we tell ourselves.

You do realize there was a time when a man was legally allowed to beat his wife with anything smaller than his thumb. That\'s where the saying, "rule of thumb" comes from. That isn\'t allowed any more.

It still happens, yes it does. It happens a lot and it happens in America. There are numerous womens groups that will testify that although law forbids it - it continues. The American culture of male domination by means of violence has not abated one dot. If you believe otherwise, you are doing yourself a disservice. Google it.

You do realize there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. They are now.

They are indeed allowed to vote, as are ethnic groups; mostly. The argument is academic, since votes are no longer tabulated justly. The counters make the difference, not the voters. Attend ANY meeting of the Republican or Democratic party. DO IT! None of those people will bite you, I promise. I have attended such meetings. Its an education. Try it some time. Don't just sit there at your computer. I challenge you to DO IT!

Folks there will give you a long impassioned speech about voting tabulation irregularities. One man, one vote? One woman, one vote? Give me a break. Please. That's not how its done. There's an avalanche of cheating going on. Don't give me that rubbish about how honest the voting is because women and ethnic groups are 'allowed' to vote. In south Florida, blacks and hispanics are restricted from voting. (source: NAACP) Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Florida isn't unique in that regard either.
Your high school civics class leaves much to be desired. You've been lied to, buddy. Don't feel bad. We've all been lied to and for a long time.

You\'ve heard of the "witch hunts"? They don\'t happen any more.
No one is being burned at the stake - literally, but spiritual persecution is rabid. It is greater and more widespread than it was in the town of Salem, Mass. three hundred years ago. If you deny it or aren't aware of it you are quite misinformed.

Is there racism, homophobia, mysogyny, agism, oppression by the government, and a war on the middle class? Yes! Yes there is! But I\'m glad these are our problems. I wouldn\'t want the problems of yesterday.

You are entirely correct regarding your list of present problems and self-inflicted social injustice. Yesterdays problems, however, are not extinct as I've pointed out. They've been given new names and appended to our new ones. We aren't better as a society, we're worse. There is absolutely no evidence that the United States as a culture or as a country has improved or changed its murderous unjust and thieving ways. On the other hand, there is ample evidence that a new kind of nationalistic militarism has been created - a form of fascism that is uniquely American. In point of fact, Americans are proud of the new fascist police state we've created. Have you seen people being interviewed in the airport after having been groped and fondled by the TSA? Most are glad of it and have enjoyed the experience. Land of the free? No way.
[Excuse me while I puke.]

My point is that things have been changing for the better for a long time and there is no reason to assume they won\'t continue to change for the better. But yes, you\'re right, there is a long way to go till it\'s perfect.

Your point is dulled by misinformation (media and government 'designer lies'), wishful thinking, cultural stereotypes, propaganda and good old fashioned advertising(*). I understand your point of view, however. I really do. When I was a young fool in high school I pinned an American flag on my bedroom wall. A real patriot. I was deluded, properly programmed, and uninformed about the real world, as were my teachers. After HS I went to college and continued to fly the flag even though I began to meet people who had real good reasons for doubting the honesty of our government and the direction our country was headed. After graduating from that 2 year college I completed a six year hitch in the military (1968-1974).

(*) Mark Twain said that American advertising was pure magic. It can make you buy things you don't need with money you don't have.

Ever see the movie STARSHIP TROOPERS? In that movie, the rights and benefits of citizenship would not accrue to anyone unless they had completed military service. In my opinion, that's the way it should be. No voting, no benefits, no driver's license, no right to own property, nothing unless an obligatory minimum of two years community service is completed. I have personally spent my entire adult life in community service, so I think I've EARNED the right to criticize.

While in the military I got an education on how the real world works. It was an eye opener! I left the military and never flew the flag again, not on my clothing, on my car or on my house. I do not pledge allegiance to the flag. I'm a veteran with an honorable discharge and I do not support the troops because I know what they're really doing. I remember the day Saigon fell and was never so ashamed of anything in my life. I burned my uniforms that day.

The government of the United States and the culture for which it stands is not something to be proud of or a thing deserving of support in any way shape or form by any reasonable liberty loving man. Know this - that THIS IS my country and I am determined to point out its lack of justice toward every ordinary citizen every chance I get.
I have earned the right to do so and if you are a law abiding tax paying citizen, so have you.

No positive future is possible without such action, education and counter-propaganda. Nothing good will happen until we as a people and a culture understand the depth of our depravity and the loss of so much of what was once good about America. It was never perfect, but it was pretty good - once. There was hope - once. There was the bright possibility of a good future for our countrymen - once. Not now. Not today. It's not Obama's fault or Bush's fault either. The fault is squarely in our own laps.

It's time for all of us to admit what's wrong and that through the years we've approved of it, go back to square one, and reinvent the wheel.

To answer your final statement, I'm not a good guy. I'm just real pissed off.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Most of what you are talking about, other than the banking system, happens outside of the law. Why would you blame the slavery of illegal immigrants on the government of the United States, and not also blame them for the 11 000 murders that took place within it's borders last year too. I thought you were going to tell me about government conspiracies, but all you told me is that there are criminals living inside the United States. I already knew that. It is not lawful to beat your wife and kids. America already locks up more people than any other country in the world.

I had to laugh how you claimed that it wasn't a free country, and then turned around and said that you would deny voting rights to anyone who didn't do "Community Service". How do you reconcile that? You're an elitist. What if someone said that only millionaires could vote, or college graduates, or they had to be 3/4 white? You're not making sense. You're too angry at everything. The government is made up of people, not all people are good.

You can't blame the government of the United States for the treatment of labourers in foreign countries without blaming their governments too... or first... or most of all. My arguement was that America is the most free, best country in the world to live in. I never said it was perfect, I just said it was better than all the rest. I stand by that. If these things are happening in America, I can only imagine what happens in a developing country. You know, one of those countries that everyone in it wants to leave. Maybe you've heard of Syria? What about Mexico?

Since this is a religious website, I'm going to suggest that these aren't American problems, they are religious problems, because God, who claims to be perfect (which the government has never done) and is watching what is happening and not doing anything about it. On the other hand, god does allow for slavery

[Choir Loft]

Since this is a religious website, I'm going to suggest that these aren't American problems, they are religious problems, because God, who claims to be perfect (which the government has never done) and is watching what is happening and not doing anything about it. On the other hand, god does allow for slavery

The government has never claimed infallibility? Oh, dear sir, I beg to differ.
NO ONE can initiate a law suite against the military for any reason. No one! It's illegal you see. What is that except a legal statement and precedent of infallibility?

One can bring suite against the civil government, provided he or she is endowed with multiple millions of dollars for legal argument and support. Most do not have those resources and must kow tow to the whims of DC. That's infallability by default. The US government doesn't say its infallible. It simply is - by law and deed. Is this right? In the present American culture that supports that sort of fascist ideology, its just fine and dandy.

The only leadership in the world that actually promotes itself as being infallable is the Pope. Too bad he's not married, he'd learn right away he isn't.

You prefer to live in a political fantasy, refusing to acknowledge the cultural and political root of the problems I've listed. 'Most free' doesn't wash any more. Despite the fact that politics is rabidly discussed elsewhere on this web site and since you want to move to religion, let's do that very thing.

"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the biggest reason America is in the mess that it's in today is directly due to the apathy and indifference of the American pulpit."
- Chuck Baldwin

Since the reformation in Europe and the establishment of Christian churches in North America, the pulpit has served as the conscience of society. For better or worse it has proclaimed the principles and dare I say, the moral standard of personal and governmental behavior. This standard is based upon the spiritual revelations of the Bible and form the basis of every human interaction. The church has been the conscience of western civilization - until the middle of the nineteenth century when humanist dogma began to eat its way into theology, until the mid-twentieth century when government began to insinuate itself into the pulpits and congregations of Christ.

Three main cancers have destroyed the church; the perversion of Protestant theology, the debauchery of leadership, and financial irresponsibility.

Theology:
Protestantism is nearing the end of a process of self-destruction. It began with the socialization and humanism of the Word of God. As of this writing the majority of Protestant denominations now deny the absolute autonomy and authority of the Bible as the Word of God. The spiritual compass of Christian faith has been denied. Without an orthodox standard, without a vision the people perish.

Leadership:
The leadership of Protestant churches in America have been debauched. They have yielded to the temptation to consider their divine calling as little more than "just a job". This new definition was aptly stated in an address by the Dean of the Commission of Ministries of the Episcopal Church in Rochester, NY in 1975.

"The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

Financial Irresponsibility
Finally US IRS 501.c.3 provides a strong inhibition against speaking anything that is considered politically incorrect from the pulpits of America. Protestant leaders are more concerned about their private little franchise than the Kingdom of God. The German dictator's words are true in this category as well.

The almighty dollar, it seems, is much more powerful in the eyes of Protestant leadership than true worship and discipleship. Churches today focus on the dog and pony show, the act, the Sunday morning entertainment extravaganza and the collection of donations than the dissemination of truth.

The church in American has degenerated into little more than a government supervised institution. Is there any wonder that the Galllup Poll among others shows a 50% - 75% decline in regular attendance since 1948 levels?

You probably won't buy any of this either, but it's all documented fact. At the end of the story, the pulpit, the conscience of America has abrogated its mandate for the sake of fallible, corruptable and temporary rewards. Americas conscience, which once spoke loud and long against injustice and immorality, is now silent.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Mr.Badham]

Since this is a religious website, I'm going to suggest that these aren't American problems, they are religious problems, because God, who claims to be perfect (which the government has never done) and is watching what is happening and not doing anything about it. On the other hand, god does allow for slavery

The government has never claimed infallibility? Oh, dear sir, I beg to differ.
NO ONE can initiate a law suite against the military for any reason. No one! It's illegal you see. What is that except a legal statement and precedent of infallibility?

One can bring suite against the civil government, provided he or she is endowed with multiple millions of dollars for legal argument and support. Most do not have those resources and must kow tow to the whims of DC. That's infallability by default. The US government doesn't say its infallible. It simply is - by law and deed. Is this right? In the present American culture that supports that sort of fascist ideology, its just fine and dandy.

The only leadership in the world that actually promotes itself as being infallable is the Pope. Too bad he's not married, he'd learn right away he isn't.

You prefer to live in a political fantasy, refusing to acknowledge the cultural and political root of the problems I've listed. 'Most free' doesn't wash any more. Despite the fact that politics is rabidly discussed elsewhere on this web site and since you want to move to religion, let's do that very thing.

"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the biggest reason America is in the mess that it's in today is directly due to the apathy and indifference of the American pulpit."
- Chuck Baldwin

Since the reformation in Europe and the establishment of Christian churches in North America, the pulpit has served as the conscience of society. For better or worse it has proclaimed the principles and dare I say, the moral standard of personal and governmental behavior. This standard is based upon the spiritual revelations of the Bible and form the basis of every human interaction. The church has been the conscience of western civilization - until the middle of the nineteenth century when humanist dogma began to eat its way into theology, until the mid-twentieth century when government began to insinuate itself into the pulpits and congregations of Christ.

Three main cancers have destroyed the church; the perversion of Protestant theology, the debauchery of leadership, and financial irresponsibility.

Theology:
Protestantism is nearing the end of a process of self-destruction. It began with the socialization and humanism of the Word of God. As of this writing the majority of Protestant denominations now deny the absolute autonomy and authority of the Bible as the Word of God. The spiritual compass of Christian faith has been denied. Without an orthodox standard, without a vision the people perish.

Leadership:
The leadership of Protestant churches in America have been debauched. They have yielded to the temptation to consider their divine calling as little more than "just a job". This new definition was aptly stated in an address by the Dean of the Commission of Ministries of the Episcopal Church in Rochester, NY in 1975.

"The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

Financial Irresponsibility
Finally US IRS 501.c.3 provides a strong inhibition against speaking anything that is considered politically incorrect from the pulpits of America. Protestant leaders are more concerned about their private little franchise than the Kingdom of God. The German dictator's words are true in this category as well.

The almighty dollar, it seems, is much more powerful in the eyes of Protestant leadership than true worship and discipleship. Churches today focus on the dog and pony show, the act, the Sunday morning entertainment extravaganza and the collection of donations than the dissemination of truth.

The church in American has degenerated into little more than a government supervised institution. Is there any wonder that the Galllup Poll among others shows a 50% - 75% decline in regular attendance since 1948 levels?

You probably won't buy any of this either, but it's all documented fact. At the end of the story, the pulpit, the conscience of America has abrogated its mandate for the sake of fallible, corruptable and temporary rewards. Americas conscience, which once spoke loud and long against injustice and immorality, is now silent.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

I suppose that I'm okay with what you have written. I have nothing to say in rebuttal. This will be my last post on the subject.

I wish you nothing but the best. I hope you can find some peace some where, some how.