Tithing; is it a form of blackmail?

[Nickman]

In the LDS church Tithing is a law found in the Doctrine and Covenants as well as spoken of by the church leaders.

In order for a person to receive a temple recommend, which allows you to participate in temple ordinances for salvation and progression in the celestial kingdom, you must pay a full 10% of your gross annual income. From an inside perspective it may seem to be voluntary to pay tithing, no one truly forces you to. From the outside, though, it seems to be a form of blackmail. Especially, when you have to pay in order to participate in all aspects of what the church has to offer. Its almost as if you are purchasing your salvation and your place in the eternities. When you are taught by the mormon missionaries about the church, this tidbit of information is candy coated. Once you become a member you become obligated to follow the leader and pay tithing. If you don't you will never go to the temple and receive your endowment and saving ordinances pertinent to your salvation.

Is this a form of blackmail?

Are people buying their salvation, while the church gets filthy rich?

Is this a marketing strategy that sells a product hope in exchange for your hard earned money and labor to the church?

[connermt]

In the LDS church Tithing is a law found in the Doctrine and Covenants as well as spoken of by the church leaders.

In order for a person to receive a temple recommend, which allows you to participate in temple ordinances for salvation and progression in the celestial kingdom, you must pay a full 10% of your gross annual income. From an inside perspective it may seem to be voluntary to pay tithing, no one truly forces you to. From the outside, though, it seems to be a form of blackmail. Especially, when you have to pay in order to participate in all aspects of what the church has to offer. Its almost as if you are purchasing your salvation and your place in the eternities. When you are taught by the mormon missionaries about the church, this tidbit of information is candy coated. Once you become a member you become obligated to follow the leader and pay tithing. If you don't you will never go to the temple and receive your endowment and saving ordinances pertinent to your salvation.

Is this a form of blackmail?

Are people buying their salvation, while the church gets filthy rich?

Is this a marketing strategy that sells a product hope in exchange for your hard earned money and labor to the church?

Tithing is nothing more than a way for people (church leaders) to make money (sheep to the slaughter). If a deity can create the universe, surely it doesn't need your money to build churches or "spread its word".
Is tithing blackmail? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it is very silly.

[Nickman]

In the LDS church Tithing is a law found in the Doctrine and Covenants as well as spoken of by the church leaders.

In order for a person to receive a temple recommend, which allows you to participate in temple ordinances for salvation and progression in the celestial kingdom, you must pay a full 10% of your gross annual income. From an inside perspective it may seem to be voluntary to pay tithing, no one truly forces you to. From the outside, though, it seems to be a form of blackmail. Especially, when you have to pay in order to participate in all aspects of what the church has to offer. Its almost as if you are purchasing your salvation and your place in the eternities. When you are taught by the mormon missionaries about the church, this tidbit of information is candy coated. Once you become a member you become obligated to follow the leader and pay tithing. If you don't you will never go to the temple and receive your endowment and saving ordinances pertinent to your salvation.

Is this a form of blackmail?

Are people buying their salvation, while the church gets filthy rich?

Is this a marketing strategy that sells a product hope in exchange for your hard earned money and labor to the church?

Tithing is nothing more than a way for people (church leaders) to make money (sheep to the slaughter). If a deity can create the universe, surely it doesn't need your money to build churches or "spread its word".
Is tithing blackmail? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it is very silly.

I took a small break from the site to gain some more perspective on my views and just to relax, but now I am back. Its a sweet poison this place.

Anyway, I thought about many of the threads I have made and on this one, I can understand the need for tithing or monetary support for any organization. I think, though, that when we make it a requirement in order to receive salvation and to be a part of the Law of Consecration, which is an LDS law that must be adhered to by all members, we are blackmailing the flock. We are holding their salvation over their heads for a monetary price. To me this is wrong. The LDS church is the only one I know that does this as a requirement.

[Vanguard]

That does sound like blackmail. Is there evidence it is true?

I was a member for sometime and at the end of the year, they have tithing settlement. That is where the Bishop of your ward (church) sits down with you behind closed doors and has you provide documentation for your gross annual earnings. He pulls out the tithing slips you have given to the church and verifies whether or not the amount the church has collected is equal to 10% of your earnings. If so your GTG, if not then you either pay the remaining amount or you lose your temple recommend. It can also be found in the policies of the church. Just google tithing settlement.

Here is a link of other such cases.

I never once had to show any documentation of my salary nor have I ever heard of anyone's exprience being as you have described. As a matter of fact, my last Bishop's tithing interview didn't even have him looking at my tithed amount. He simply asked my wife and I if we were full tithe payers. We said "yes" and that was the end of it.

I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience though the nature of your posts presumes to.

[Nickman]

That does sound like blackmail. Is there evidence it is true?

I was a member for sometime and at the end of the year, they have tithing settlement. That is where the Bishop of your ward (church) sits down with you behind closed doors and has you provide documentation for your gross annual earnings. He pulls out the tithing slips you have given to the church and verifies whether or not the amount the church has collected is equal to 10% of your earnings. If so your GTG, if not then you either pay the remaining amount or you lose your temple recommend. It can also be found in the policies of the church. Just google tithing settlement.

Here is a link of other such cases.

I never once had to show any documentation of my salary nor have I ever heard of anyone's exprience being as you have described. As a matter of fact, my last Bishop's tithing interview didn't even have him looking at my tithed amount. He simply asked my wife and I if we were full tithe payers. We said "yes" and that was the end of it.

I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience though the nature of your posts presumes to.

Obviously it is not going to be the same for everyone. I had one experience just as yours where the bishop just asked and we said yes. I have also had the experience I posted in this thread and so have many people which I provided a link for.

[Vanguard]

That does sound like blackmail. Is there evidence it is true?

I was a member for sometime and at the end of the year, they have tithing settlement. That is where the Bishop of your ward (church) sits down with you behind closed doors and has you provide documentation for your gross annual earnings. He pulls out the tithing slips you have given to the church and verifies whether or not the amount the church has collected is equal to 10% of your earnings. If so your GTG, if not then you either pay the remaining amount or you lose your temple recommend. It can also be found in the policies of the church. Just google tithing settlement.

Here is a link of other such cases.

I never once had to show any documentation of my salary nor have I ever heard of anyone's exprience being as you have described. As a matter of fact, my last Bishop's tithing interview didn't even have him looking at my tithed amount. He simply asked my wife and I if we were full tithe payers. We said "yes" and that was the end of it.

I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience though the nature of your posts presumes to.

Obviously it is not going to be the same for everyone. I had one experience just as yours where the bishop just asked and we said yes. I have also had the experience I posted in this thread and so have many people which I provided a link for.

Fair enough. I perused the first dozen or so posts from your link and not one indivdiual complained about having to bring in documentation of their gross annual earnings. This appears to be something that you interjected in your own definition of tithing settlement. And you can see how this skews the commentary on this very thread when others are led to beleive this is the norm. Most if not all of the posts from your link are complaining about the process of simply declaring whether one is a full tithe payer or not. And yes, this is part of the process. I've never had an issue with it nore do I believe it assures me anything of a heavenly reward.

Though I appreciate your civility in your respone to me, you do yourself no favors when you deliberately lead people to believe your own experiences - or those from a few of your buddies - constitute what the norm is. And based on the nature of many responses to your OP it is anything but obvious that folks understand others' experiences may vary.

[Nickman]

@Vanguard

I think that several of these testimonies speak of tithing settlement in the same way I stated. To note also, when I was a member and my tithing was actually paid in full in correlation to my annual gross pay, I was simply asked the question are you a full tithe payer. If I was behind and they knew it then the records were brought out and my tithing contributions were challenged. All of this with my Temple recommend hanging in the balance, which allowed me to be part of the saving temple ordinances and those ordinances which are pertinent to my eternal soul.


From the link:

I stopped paying tithing several months ago. My wife asked me yesterday if I still planned to go with her to tithing settlement at the end of the year. It made me shutter.

I can't think of any other religion that shakes down members for contributions the way the Mormons do. Yes, other churche pass around baskets and pressure you into giving money. But the Mormons require (yes, it is required) that members attending a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year to state, on the record, if they have paid a full tithe. If you have not, for any reason, you will be lectured on the need to repent and come back into compliance with the law of tithing.

I spoke with my wife about how odd tithing settlement is when you think about it. She said it is largely to get tax records and so the bishop can socialize with you for a few minutes. That is so obviously silly that it is not worth the effort to refute. The church has way too many personal worthiness interviews. Tithing settlement, temple recommends (which have a big tithing component) and PPIs. I think tithing settlement is the worst.

Someone once told me in the early days they would have people stand up in sacrament meeting and declare if they were a full tithe payer in front of everyone. I don't know if that is true. Does anyone know the history of tithing settlement as we know it today? When did the church start calling everyone in to make them state on the record if they are paying a full tithe?

This one is pretty straightforward and the one below cannot be true if there were no records to examine. How would the bishop know if your a month behind?

I think tithing settlement is a complete invasion. I bristled every time I had to do it. It just reinforces the fact that you have to pay your way into the temple and into the "celestial kingdom". Back when I was a member, my bishop once withheld my recommend because I was a month behind on paying my tithing. I was working my ass of in ward and stake callings, taking my kids to church every week by myself, doing my visiting teaching, etc., but he felt I wasn't worthy to go to the temple, that I was "stealing from the lord." I missed my cousin's wedding because I didn't have the recommend. I was devastated and completely embarrassed to miss the wedding. I was so ashamed because of the things the bishop said to me.

I am so relieved to be out of that mental, emotional, financial trap.

Here is a training aid from the LDS website of how to keep RECORDS of such things as Tithing settlement. It is a 20 minute training video that states this:

INTRODUCTION
Each member of the church whose records are in the ward, should meet with the bishop for tithing settlement. During this meeting members will have the opportunity to:

-Make sure their donation RECORDS are correct

-Declare their tithing status

-Receive instruction from the bishop about tithing, fast offerings and other matters

On the following page after the Introduction page it gives all of the responsibilities for Bishops, Counselors, Clerks an Executive Secretaries. Check it out. Your tithing is recorded to ensure that you pay in full. If you have you won't be "shaken down". If you haven't well then you will experience the NORM and instructed protocol for not doing so.

There is no need to pull out the paperwork for those who do pay in full. For those that do not pay in full, they will experience what I have stated and as these testimonies say as well.


Again from the website I originally posted and that you think I am misquoting:

Yikes, Tithing settlements. What a scary blast from my past. I hated them. Even when I walked in knowing I was...or at least feeling I was a full tithe payer. I was always a bit nervous, as if they were going to find something that I should have tithed and blow my temple chances.

Actually this is not for tax records, it is your temple audit. It is where the BofCG (Bank of Celestial Glory) compiles your yearly statement and you find out if you made all of your temple payments on time.

My wife and I one time were so nervous, we walked in and she broke into tears. No reason. All was good. That was our first settlement right before we went to the temple for the first time.

But as I said, it was all about the temple...it is a shame how they can use going to the temple to get us to give money. We had lost our first child when she was 2 and a half, and every church leader after that used her as a reason for us to give them money...er...go to the temple.

Larry Huffman

It used to be in the morg you just signed up for t.s. on the sheet of paper the bishop hung outside his office, and if you did not go you were a part tithe payer, end of story.

Now they summon you via a letter to show up at an appointed time in the bishop's office. Last year we ignored the stupid summons and we had FIVE follow-up messages in our machine. Screw this. We never answered any of them and we don't owe this stupid "church" any money.

We also stopped going to church, period. They have the members over a barrel if they want a temple recommend, though.

Yes, all other churches will ask for funds to run on but I have never seen the kind of extortion that goes on in the Mormon-mafia.

People are really stupid to put up with this abuse. A simple NO, without further explanations, should suffice when ordered to come see the bishop.

This is just the top of the heap from that website. If you feel I have misrepresented the NORM then please show me how and retract the statement that I misrepresented my own website sourse. I understand you haven't had this happen to you and that it is done in private and people don't talk about their tithing settlement with everyone. Those who get out of the church do infact talk about their experience and it is the norm. It is also the norm in the churches eyes since they have training videos on how to shake you down with the documentation.

[Vanguard]

I think that several of these testimonies speak of tithing settlement in the same way I stated. To note also, when I was a member and my tithing was actually paid in full in correlation to my annual gross pay, I was simply asked the question are you a full tithe payer. If I was behind and they knew it then the records were brought out and my tithing contributions were challenged.

But how did they "know" it? My salary over the course of several years has fluctuated many times. I have never been asked about such fluctuations. It has always been the same question - "Are you a full tithe payer?" - and nothing more.

From the link:

I stopped paying tithing several months ago. My wife asked me yesterday if I still planned to go with her to tithing settlement at the end of the year. It made me shutter.

I can't think of any other religion that shakes down members for contributions the way the Mormons do. Yes, other churche pass around baskets and pressure you into giving money. But the Mormons require (yes, it is required) that members attending a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year to state, on the record, if they have paid a full tithe. If you have not, for any reason, you will be lectured on the need to repent and come back into compliance with the law of tithing.

I spoke with my wife about how odd tithing settlement is when you think about it. She said it is largely to get tax records and so the bishop can socialize with you for a few minutes. That is so obviously silly that it is not worth the effort to refute. The church has way too many personal worthiness interviews. Tithing settlement, temple recommends (which have a big tithing component) and PPIs. I think tithing settlement is the worst.

Someone once told me in the early days they would have people stand up in sacrament meeting and declare if they were a full tithe payer in front of everyone. I don't know if that is true. Does anyone know the history of tithing settlement as we know it today? When did the church start calling everyone in to make them state on the record if they are paying a full tithe?

This one is pretty straightforward...

This first excerpt says nothing about showing one's paycheck stubs or some such. Your bolded part refers soley to the accounting records presented to the couple beforehand of how much the couple has payed for the year. It is a help to them when determining whether or not they have payed a full tithe.

...and the one below cannot be true if there were no records to examine. How would the bishop know if your a month behind?

I think tithing settlement is a complete invasion. I bristled every time I had to do it. It just reinforces the fact that you have to pay your way into the temple and into the "celestial kingdom". Back when I was a member, my bishop once withheld my recommend because I was a month behind on paying my tithing. I was working my ass of in ward and stake callings, taking my kids to church every week by myself, doing my visiting teaching, etc., but he felt I wasn't worthy to go to the temple, that I was "stealing from the lord." I missed my cousin's wedding because I didn't have the recommend. I was devastated and completely embarrassed to miss the wedding. I was so ashamed because of the things the bishop said to me.

I am so relieved to be out of that mental, emotional, financial trap.

How would the Bishop know if the couple were a month behind?! Are you kidding?! You didn't really consider the possiblity that the couple told the Bishop this?!

Here is a training aid from the LDS website of how to keep RECORDS of such things as Tithing settlement. It is a 20 minute training video that states this:

INTRODUCTION
Each member of the church whose records are in the ward, should meet with the bishop for tithing settlement. During this meeting members will have the opportunity to:

-Make sure their donation RECORDS are correct

-Declare their tithing status

-Receive instruction from the bishop about tithing, fast offerings and other matters

On the following page after the Introduction page it gives all of the responsibilities for Bishops, Counselors, Clerks an Executive Secretaries. Check it out. Your tithing is recorded to ensure that you pay in full. If you have you won't be "shaken down". If you haven't well then you will experience the NORM and instructed protocol for not doing so.

There is no need to pull out the paperwork for those who do pay in full. For those that do not pay in full, they will experience what I have stated and as these testimonies say as well.

Come on, Nick - where in this passage does it say that an individual or couple is to present their income stubs? Again, the "records" being referred to are the accounting records of the tithes payed for that given year. It is up to the couple to report whether those payments represent a full tithe or not.

Again from the website I originally posted and that you think I am misquoting:

I have not accused you of misquoting. I have accused you of speaking of your tithing settlement experience as though it were the policy of the church. And you still have not refuted this.

To continue with another passage from your link and one that you have most recently quotted in your previous post -

Yikes, Tithing settlements. What a scary blast from my past. I hated them. Even when I walked in knowing I was...or at least feeling I was a full tithe payer. I was always a bit nervous, as if they were going to find something that I should have tithed and blow my temple chances.

Actually this is not for tax records, it is your temple audit. It is where the BofCG (Bank of Celestial Glory) compiles your yearly statement and you find out if you made all of your temple payments on time.

My wife and I one time were so nervous, we walked in and she broke into tears. No reason. All was good. That was our first settlement right before we went to the temple for the first time.

But as I said, it was all about the temple...it is a shame how they can use going to the temple to get us to give money. We had lost our first child when she was 2 and a half, and every church leader after that used her as a reason for us to give them money...er...go to the temple.

Larry Huffman

Please see my previous response. "Yearly statement" refers to the accounting of what you have payed thus far in that given year.

It used to be in the morg you just signed up for t.s. on the sheet of paper the bishop hung outside his office, and if you did not go you were a part tithe payer, end of story.

Now they summon you via a letter to show up at an appointed time in the bishop's office. Last year we ignored the stupid summons and we had FIVE follow-up messages in our machine. Screw this. We never answered any of them and we don't owe this stupid "church" any money.

We also stopped going to church, period. They have the members over a barrel if they want a temple recommend, though.

Yes, all other churches will ask for funds to run on but I have never seen the kind of extortion that goes on in the Mormon-mafia.

People are really stupid to put up with this abuse. A simple NO, without further explanations, should suffice when ordered to come see the bishop.

Again, nothing regards to my assertion.

This is just the top of the heap from that website. If you feel I have misrepresented the NORM then please show me how and retract the statement that I misrepresented my own website sourse. I understand you haven't had this happen to you and that it is done in private and people don't talk about their tithing settlement with everyone. Those who get out of the church do infact talk about their experience and it is the norm. It is also the norm in the churches eyes since they have training videos on how to shake you down with the documentation.

If this "just the top of the heap" is representative of the rest then you got nothin' brother. Thus far, it is readily apparent that indeed you have mischaracterized your personal experiences as being the NORM. I haven't needed to show you this. You have been challenged to show me that this is so and you have not. I haven't any doubt there are many interesting stories of callous behavior on the part of many a Bishopric. This is not the point and never was. Do not turn this into a Red Herring because you are unable to back up your now overt claim that showing your income receipts is the NORM in the church. I did not intend for my challenge to go this far. It could have been easily rectified by your acknowledging my assertion was indeed the case. And yet here we are. It's good though. I'll let the reader decide for himself whether I have made my case or not.

I have many interesting stories myself that would make good fodder for a reasoned exchange. And though I appreciate your bedside manner of late I don't want my experiences to be turned upside down on their heads in order to pander to what is obvious to me an attempt to smear an organization at almost every turn. That is unfortunate.

I'll give you the last word. Perhaps we'll exchange again...

[Nickman]

But how did they "know" it? My salary over the course of several years has fluctuated many times. I have never been asked about such fluctuations. It has always been the same question - "Are you a full tithe payer?" - and nothing more.

Yu don't think that they know your tithing contributions and yearly earnings? How can you do a tithing settlement without these two factors? I have shown that I was not the only one that have had this experience. I also stated that I have had your experience as well on a couple occasions but there were some that were shake downs as I described and as others have described.

This first excerpt says nothing about showing one's paycheck stubs or some such. Your bolded part refers soley to the accounting records presented to the couple beforehand of how much the couple has payed for the year. It is a help to them when determining whether or not they have payed a full tithe.

And that is what I stated.Your contributions are considered against your actual pay. I have been asked to bring in paycheck stubs for settlement.

Come on, Nick - where in this passage does it say that an individual or couple is to present their income stubs? Again, the "records" being referred to are the accounting records of the tithes payed for that given year. It is up to the couple to report whether those payments represent a full tithe or not.

Exactly which is a record of how much you paid to the church so they can shake you down later. That is the whole point. Did you also not watch the whole training video?

I have not accused you of misquoting. I have accused you of speaking of your tithing settlement experience as though it were the policy of the church. And you still have not refuted this.

Tithing settlement is a church policy that you don't seem to have a problem with. You seem to think it is ok for a Church leader to hold your temple recommend over your head as bait in order for you to pay a full tithe. This is extortion and blackmail. You know what that recommend means and that it is the most important thing to have as a member. It is a statement of your worthiness and celestial exaltation qualification and you have to pay for it. So whether or not the majority of tithe payers are askd as I was to bring in stubs or not is not the point. The point is that the whole tithing settlement is corrupt.

To continue with another passage from your link and one that you have most recently quotted in your previous post -


Please see my previous response. "Yearly statement" refers to the accounting of what you have payed thus far in that given year.

And you don't see a problem with this at all? Your free to pay for your salvation if you want to.

If this "just the top of the heap" is representative of the rest then you got nothin' brother.

I think they have suited my purpose quite well. The tithing settlement is an attempt to collect a debt from you for your temple recommend. That debt is a total of 10% of your annual earnings. Lets say that your annual earnings is 100K. Your temple recommend costed 10K dollars. Are you happy with that?

Thus far, it is readily apparent that indeed you have mischaracterized your personal experiences as being the NORM. I haven't needed to show you this. You have been challenged to show me that this is so and you have not. I haven't any doubt there are many interesting stories of callous behavior on the part of many a Bishopric. This is not the point and never was. Do not turn this into a Red Herring because you are unable to back up your now overt claim that showing your income receipts is the NORM in the church. I did not intend for my challenge to go this far. It could have been easily rectified by your acknowledging my assertion was indeed the case. And yet here we are. It's good though. I'll let the reader decide for himself whether I have made my case or not.

I have shown that my case was not an isolated incident and that it has happened to others.

I have many interesting stories myself that would make good fodder for a reasoned exchange. And though I appreciate your bedside manner of late I don't want my experiences to be turned upside down on their heads in order to pander to what is obvious to me an attempt to smear an organization at almost every turn. That is unfortunate.

When it is a corrupt agency built on false writings and blatantly confirmed false translations of ancient papyrus and sold to people as truth, then I have a problem with it. Everything about the organization is false. Its very core is based on lies and corruption. A simple study will render to anyone this truth. I would love to debate it with you entirely and anyone else. Every little piece of the church we can open up and examine. I would love that. Are you certain that your beliefs would come through clean on the other side?

[Malachi_Smith]

The scripture states that we are the temple
of the living God. The tithing in early Israel
went to the temple, widows, orphans, and
"strangers in the land." No provision was
made for the priests. They had day jobs and
did not receive any money from the tithes.
So save your money and help according to
your conscience.

[Nickman]

The scripture states that we are the temple
of the living God. The tithing in early Israel
went to the temple, widows, orphans, and
"strangers in the land." No provision was
made for the priests. They had day jobs and
did not receive any money from the tithes.
So save your money and help according to
your conscience.

This is the best post on this thread that I have seen. Thank you.