Is self-improvement possible without free will?

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Darias
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Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #1

Post by Darias »

Neuroscience has found no evidence for conscious free-will. Our subconscious decides to do something 6 seconds before our conscious mind becomes aware of it. We are a product of nature and nurture and are capable of changing our perspective via realization of facts - such as, "I better lose weight if I want to live longer."

But how does that desire to lose weight translate into action? Even Paul went through this sort of problem:
Romans 7:15 wrote:I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
If I am predisposed to love unhealthy foods and still eat them despite wanting to eat more healthy -- is it possible to have will power at all to change that? Sure the knowledge of the fact that I need to make healthier choices is a motivator, but how does that translate into choice? Can it?

I don't ascribe to free will but I had always thought that at any given moment I had a range of possible actions I could be capable of doing, given my upbringing, my experiences, and biology. Like, I could choose diet Pepsi, diet Mountain Dew, or water. But now I doubt I even have that capacity at all.

If I want to improve myself (health or otherwise), is this even possible? Is the fact that I have a will to do those things an indicator that I have the capacity to do them? Or am I just along for the ride?

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Post #2

Post by razovor »

I'd say you can improve yourself, but it's not your choice. You either are going to improve yourself, or you're not. It's been predetermined.

I can't really guess which one is going to happen, though having strong enough desires that you would post the issue here, seems to me to indicate a high probability.

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Post #3

Post by preacher »

human science is till at its infancy compared to all knowledge in the whole universe. Something that we now say is wrong might be proven to be true in the future. so, your neuroscience or whatever science may still be wrong because of the limitation of information the scientist can comprehend up to this moment.

and no such thing as predetermination. No one, not even God Himself interferes when determining the future. Although He can actually see the future, but He doesn't make the future that way. So, yes, He already sees (not predict) whether you or me will go to heaven or hell. He already sees how many children we'll have, and how many children those children of ours will have and where they'll go when they die, even if they don't exist yet at the present. He doesn't make someone to be evil or good. It's a choice made by those individuals. Yes, it's very likely on some occasions, He'll let certain things to happen to each individual that will put them in a situation where they have to CHOOSE to be good or evil. So everything is by choice. Sometimes people argue that they have no choice, well that's BS because people always have a choice. It's just that when people only has two choices, and one of them is really really unpleasant, they'll think that they only have one choice (because the really really unpleasant choice is considered "not an option"). But actually they still have two choices eventhough one of them sucks big time.

So you see, your upbringing, your surroundings, what people around you do, you always have a choice to follow them or not to follow them. but, they'll make a good excuse to justify your action (like when you say you smoke because everybody else smokes), but that's all they are, excuses. In the end, the choice is ALWAYS yours, and you always have a choice (because of your free will).

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Re: Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #4

Post by McCulloch »

Darias wrote: Like, I could choose diet Pepsi, diet Mountain Dew, or water. But now I doubt I even have that capacity at all.
Or you could choose juice, milk, herbal tea or kombucha.
Darias wrote: If I want to improve myself (health or otherwise), is this even possible? Is the fact that I have a will to do those things an indicator that I have the capacity to do them? Or am I just along for the ride?
If you want to improve yourself, then it is possible. But in context of free will, we have to look at where that desire to improve yourself comes from. Did you freely choose to want to improve yourself?

Welcome to the debates, preacher. :wave:
preacher wrote: human science is till at its infancy compared to all knowledge in the whole universe. Something that we now say is wrong might be proven to be true in the future. so, your neuroscience or whatever science may still be wrong because of the limitation of information the scientist can comprehend up to this moment.
Yes, but that is no reason to discount the current findings of science in favor of superstitions. Good science has a tendency to be cumulative rather than revolutionary. With a few notable and very important exceptions, most scientific discoveries build on existing knowledge rather than refute previously held theories.
preacher wrote: and no such thing as predetermination. No one, not even God Himself interferes when determining the future.
Unlike you, I am not so bold as to claim what God can or cannot do. Heck, I don't even know what you mean when you use the word god! However, it does seem that the universe is a combination of determined events and random events. And the random ones only occur at the quantum level.
preacher wrote: Although He can actually see the future, but He doesn't make the future that way. So, yes, He already sees (not predict) whether you or me will go to heaven or hell. He already sees how many children we'll have, and how many children those children of ours will have and where they'll go when they die, even if they don't exist yet at the present.
If that is true, then couldn't he also see what the consequences of an intervention would be. He might strike an enemy of the faith blind on some road, seeing that it would convert him to the cause.

As you say, we all have choices. And we don't know which option we will choose. Thus it appears to us, subjectively, that we have free will, largely because we do not understand the process by which we make our own choices. But it is an illusion that our will is truly free.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #5

Post by preacher »

thank you for the warm welcome. glad to join you guys and girls.

to avoid further confusion, I'm a christian, and whenever I say GOD, I'm referring to Jesus Christ.

Yes, you may take current science, but don't take it as a whole truth. remember, humans keep on finding new things and that might render all past assumptions invalid. Good science also needs to be open minded and accept fact, even when it doesn't go your way. bottom line, human science is not 100% reliable to base your entire decision on. sometimes 99% true will lead to a disaster.

I'm also no so bold to predict what God can and can't do. But I'm quite sure somewhere in the bible (sorry, I don;t have photographic memory, so I kinda forget) that somewhere in the bible (in the bible, not some interpretation from humans like pastors, priests or the likes) God has demonstrated more than once that He is capable of actually seeing the future. Like the prophecy when Jesus will be sold for 30 gold coins (the exact guess of 30 gold coins is quite hard if you're only able to predict but not actually see the future) and many other prophecies that come to pass in the new testament. Well, if you say that the entire bible is just some fabrication so that those prophecies will be fulfilled in new testament, I must admit defeat right here right now, because the bible is my only ammunition. and I don't believe in randomness. to babies, fibonacci sequence seems random, but to people having basic math education, it's not random. So in the same sense, something that seems random to our small brain might not be random at all to God.

as for striking someone blind, I assume you're talking about Apostle Paul. i'm guessing what you're trying to say is why don't God just put everyone in a condition where they all have to choose to be good right? after all God knows everything, so he's got to know how to make everybody a good person, right? no, that's not true. sometimes it's impossible for even God to make somebody a good person without taking his/her free will, and God will never take away someone's free will. He wants everyone to either love Him voluntarily or hate Him voluntarily. bottom line is, it has to be voluntarily. So, God knows Paul would choose to follow Him voluntarily if He striked him blind, and so He did. but what about that person whose wife died from cancer? even when the husband prayed so hard, but the wife still died. because of that the husband became a drunkard, abuses his children and ended up in jail. God has rules. I'm not sure what these rules are. If anybody knows, please tell me, I want to know too. Just because He knows by letting the wife die will cause the husband to burn in hell doesn't mean God will heal the wife. Perhaps it's her time already and that is non negotiable. So God expects the husband to respect His decision and continue to believe in Him. again, the husband has a choice, to accept his wife's death and move on, or to stay in bitterness and destroy himself and people around him in the process.

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Re: Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #6

Post by PhilosoRaptor »

Darias wrote: If I am predisposed to love unhealthy foods and still eat them despite wanting to eat more healthy -- is it possible to have will power at all to change that?
Yes, I think so. Willpower is not obviated by determinism. It's a fact that people demonstrate incredible amounts of willpower - all determinism changes about this is that we must acknowledge that they didn't *consciously* choose how to apply their willpower, or to what degree, and so on. To me, strength of will is no less impressive for this fact.
Sure the knowledge of the fact that I need to make healthier choices is a motivator, but how does that translate into choice? Can it?
Yes, I think it can. You merely acknowledging that it is a "motivator" implies that it can. It's one more stimulus entering the black box of our subconscious mind. *How* is a much harder question. Presumably the force of our belief in "Needing to make healthier choices" along with the depth of our understanding about why we need to make healthier choices, along with other factors like our confidence that we can succeed in making healthier choices, all influence how strongly our inner mental machinations will weight that fact in outputing decisions to be acted upon in the future.

I also think that conscious rumination can actually function to bring about changes in the subconscious workings of our minds. It's still all determined, but at least I don't think our conscious thought is entirely non-efficacious.
I don't ascribe to free will but I had always thought that at any given moment I had a range of possible actions I could be capable of doing, given my upbringing, my experiences, and biology. Like, I could choose diet Pepsi, diet Mountain Dew, or water. But now I doubt I even have that capacity at all.
It depends on exactly what you mean when you say "I have a range of possible actions." In the first person perspective/introspective sense that you can't see into the black box of your underlying mental workings that ultimately result in your actions, then yes, you do have a range of possible actions. Lots of small stimuli you may not even notice will conspire together with your current mental state to produce a choice that will *feel* like you made it, when truly you just became aware of your mind's choice. That's why you can be surprised at yourself.

In the sense that every action causally follows at least probabilistically from prior events, no, you actually don't have a range of possible actions. But since we have the gift of ignorance of the intricacies of all those causal interactions, we may as well pretend we do have a range of actions. More fun and profitable that way, IMHO.
If I want to improve myself (health or otherwise), is this even possible?
Yes. People improve themselves all the time, don't they? The fact that they were determined to do so is irrelevant from their first-person perspective: to them it appears that they pushed themselves to improvement. Which is kind of nice, since it gives a feeling of self-efficacy that can build on itself, even if it's on some level a lie.

So we should take away from this that it does no good to try to apply determinism practically to our own first-person experience. We really have no choice but to pretend we are free agents if we ever want to accomplish anything. Since we can't know what the future is determined to be, we can't choose to just "follow the script" or something. Perhaps the script is for us to improve! If you want to improve, and then you end up doing it, that was the script!

I think determinism is more fruitfully applied to our view of other people. It softens my gaze on both the errors and triumphs of others to know that they were not responsible for them in any ultimate sense, while at the same time realizing that praise and punishment still are rational, as those things do have *real* potential to participate in the determinative scheme (at least from our non-omniscient perspective).
Is the fact that I have a will to do those things an indicator that I have the capacity to do them? Or am I just along for the ride?
Again, in a first person sense you have the "capacity" to do anything. You can't know what the future holds. Whether it's actually in the determinative cards is something else. Having a will to do something is not an indicator that aren't constrained by circumstance to do the opposite, if that's what you're asking.

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Re: Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #7

Post by connermt »

Darias wrote: Neuroscience has found no evidence for conscious free-will. Our subconscious decides to do something 6 seconds before our conscious mind becomes aware of it. We are a product of nature and nurture and are capable of changing our perspective via realization of facts - such as, "I better lose weight if I want to live longer."

But how does that desire to lose weight translate into action? Even Paul went through this sort of problem:
Romans 7:15 wrote:I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
If I am predisposed to love unhealthy foods and still eat them despite wanting to eat more healthy -- is it possible to have will power at all to change that? Sure the knowledge of the fact that I need to make healthier choices is a motivator, but how does that translate into choice? Can it?

I don't ascribe to free will but I had always thought that at any given moment I had a range of possible actions I could be capable of doing, given my upbringing, my experiences, and biology. Like, I could choose diet Pepsi, diet Mountain Dew, or water. But now I doubt I even have that capacity at all.

If I want to improve myself (health or otherwise), is this even possible? Is the fact that I have a will to do those things an indicator that I have the capacity to do them? Or am I just along for the ride?
IMO, there are at least 2 definitions of "free will": the typical free will and the free will definition used by christians (christians like to make their own definitions to prove their own points).
Typical free will means you have the ability to make your own decisions - basically: cheeseburger or regular burger?
Free will, as defined by christians many times, means you're free to participate in sin and when you do, you go against god. This is used as an excuse for their god's responsibility.

Typical free will: you can improve yourself if you're capable of doing so, there's room for improvement, you want to, etc.
Christian free will: you can improve yourself only to the extent that it doesn't hinder their god's design for your life - AKA only to the extent god will allow you to improve.

Christians are divided when it comes to destiny (and many, many other things as well). Therefore, you'll never get one, solid, straight, universal answer from that group. Which isn't totally unexpected as the religion is man made which evolves over time and from society to society.

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but how does that translate into choice? Can it?

Post #8

Post by SeveredVayne »

MAN I love this topic! The closest approximation to a laymen answer I've heard to this is "The illusion of freedom lies in choice".

Ever seen those little laser guided robots that when they sense an edge or a wall, simply turn around and roll away? Cause: Laser no longer responds/responds to something in the way. Effect: Robot rolls away. I feel that's the same scenario for us, only on a chemical/senses level.

Chemical robots yes, but six seconds is all your going to get as far as precognition is concerned. Problem is, There are simply TOO MANY VARIABLES to extract, to get any sort of reading on anyone. Twins often times go through many of the same events, but that small distance between them changes their individual perceptions IMMENSELY. It seems a choice to us because there are so many things to do, that even though your MIND may already be made up, YOU may not know it; though it does sort of feel like your being compelled to certain actions sometimes, dunnit?

The illusion of choice is the brains way of making you think you've helped a bit. The fact that you're interested in getting into shape, already says something good toward your cause; However it's important to question why you find it so important, as some people would rather live a life of the mind (which sometimes neglects the body) and I'm not sure there's much wrong with THAT either. You'll be fine champ ^_^

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Re: Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #9

Post by Malachi_Smith »

[Replying to post 1 by Darias]

I read the book "Free Will" by Sam Harris, and it should be read.
I wrote out a short Bible study with the info from "Free Will" and
the scripture you have presented. Nothing is ever resolved in any
dialog I have had. God is All Mighty, and nobody likes that.

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Re: Is self-improvement possible without free will?

Post #10

Post by thepandemicson »

[Replying to post 1 by Darias]

Preacher: You're looking for Matthew 27:9
"Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel,"

I find this one fascinating. True, neuroscience may have no current evidence that choice and free will exists... but that doesn't dismiss these things as possibility. Remember, there was no noted evidence that the world was round until some crazy Spaniard took a couple galleons and set sail for the edge of the world that everyone KNEW was there.

I'll argue that free will exists, but that our current scientific advances can't yet detect it, nor how it works. The idea that our choices are predetermined random actions programmed into our brains strikes me as much as a simple explanation as the idea that free will is a mystical intangible force built into us by a God. There's nothing simple about what goes on in our heads.

While physical science may not have proven that free will exists, it hasn't yet proven that it doesn't exist. I think observable supporting evidence of the existence of free will could be obtained by watching the actions of pretty much anyone, even if we can't yet find the part of the human brain that houses our choice-making mechanism.

If we didn't have free will, why should the idea that we didn't have it even disturb us?

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