As a Christian, is it better to be gay or to be intolerant?

[Bourne20]

I'm more looking for a Christian perspective on this, but everyone is welcome to answer.

Assuming a person HAD to do one of the following options, which would be worse:
1. Being gay, as in, regularly participating in homosexual activity
or
2. Discriminating against gay people regularly (defined below)

Which is a greater sin? Which is more moral or ethical? What do you think Jesus would say?


To define #2 a little more, by "discriminate against gays" I mean one of four severity levels:
1. Calling them by derogatory names and mocking them (in front them and/or their family)
2. Telling them they are committing a sin and/or are going to hell unless they change (not as a mockery, but serious)
3. Taking (non-violent) action against them, such as firing them based on sexuality
4. Taking violent action against them, or encouraging others to do so

Your can answer can take one or more (preferably all) discrimination levels into consideration.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

[Wootah]

Can you demonstrate the logical necessity of your choices? It doesn't seem to have a rational basis.

[Divine Insight]

Assuming a person HAD to do one of the following options, which would be worse:

I'm no longer a Christian, but was a Christian at one time so I can offer you my "Christian Perspective" as I can still articulate it.

To begin with if I HAD to do something (i.e. in having no choice in the matter), then it wouldn't be a sin. From my "Christian perspective" sin is a Free Will Choice to knowingly disobey what I believe God expects of me. So as soon as you place the condition on here that I HAD to do something, you've taken away my Free Will Choice. I would personally do none of the things that you have listed.

I'm not Gay myself. I'm simply not sexually attracted to my own gender, so I would never partake in homosexual activities. For me it's not even a moral question because it's not even something that I'd care to do. So it's not even on the horizon of something that I would choose via Free Will Choice.

On the issue of which "sin" is worse. That too is a non-issue. In Christianity, (as I was taught and understood it), sin is nothing more than disobedience of God's commands and directives. Therefore all sin must necessarily be equal. In other words, you're either obeying God or you're disobeying God. And that's really the only criteria. I'll be the first to grant that this seems kind of weird, but I no longer need to support that view as I am no longer a Christian anyway. But I can understand the concept when stated as I've just done here. Disobedience of God is a Sin. So any and all disobedience is equivalent, regardless of how we might judge one "sin" to appear to be more repugnant than another.

Now on to your list.

1. Calling them by derogatory names and mocking them (in front them and/or their family)

Well, that would certainly be childish and immature. But in Christianity it would also be a sin, if only because it would be in violation of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and "Love they neighbor".

So yes that would be a sin and a violation of the teachings of Jesus.

2. Telling them they are committing a sin and/or are going to hell unless they change (not as a mockery, but serious)

Many Christians may disagree with me on this one, but I would say that this is also a sin as it violates the directives of Jesus that we are not to judge others.

If they were to inquire about Christianity then it would be proper to offer our views on what we think of God's view on Homosexuality.

Personally in light of the teachings of Jesus, I would have to say that I cannot say whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Jesus never addressed the topic directly and he rejected much of the Old Testament, so my own personal position on that as a Christian would be to simply suggest to the Gay people that they should read the Bible and decide for themselves on that issue. And I would leave it between them and God at that point. Not being Gay myself, I really have no interest in whether it's a sin or not.

3. Taking (non-violent) action against them, such as firing them based on sexuality

That would be a sin against the teachings of Jesus not to judge others.

4. Taking violent action against them, or encouraging others to do so

Again that would be a violation of the teachings of Jesus, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and "Love they neighbor".

~~~~

In short the four things on your list would all be sins. Whether homosexuality is a sin or not I chose not to even consider, simply because it doesn't apply to me. So that would be up to the homosexual couple to decide on their own. And I would leave that entirely between them and God. It's not for me to say.

That's my "Christian" perspective, even though I'm no longer a Christian. I can still offer the views I would hold if I were still a Christian.

[connermt]

I'm more looking for a Christian perspective on this, but everyone is welcome to answer.

Assuming a person HAD to do one of the following options, which would be worse:
1. Being gay, as in, regularly participating in homosexual activity
or
2. Discriminating against gay people regularly (defined below)

Which is a greater sin? Which is more moral or ethical? What do you think Jesus would say?


To define #2 a little more, by "discriminate against gays" I mean one of four severity levels:
1. Calling them by derogatory names and mocking them (in front them and/or their family)
2. Telling them they are committing a sin and/or are going to hell unless they change (not as a mockery, but serious)
3. Taking (non-violent) action against them, such as firing them based on sexuality
4. Taking violent action against them, or encouraging others to do so

Your can answer can take one or more (preferably all) discrimination levels into consideration.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

As a proud, former christian, I will speak from my experience:
It would be better to be gay in private than to take actions against the whole group of people. Why? Because you can hide it from people if you're good enough at it. And if you're caught, you simply "ask for forgiveness" and you're golden!
You know, have a wife & kids, then on the weekends, participate in the "sin" you're "working through with jesus!"
However, there are enough zealot sects of christainity that you could do both or simply be OK with bashing gay people and their lives (WBPC comes to mind) because god can't be understood.
Christianity breeds hypocrisy and those who love to live in hypocrisy tend to flock to christianity in droves.

[Bourne20]

Wootah: I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

Divine Insight: Thank you for your thorough reply. That's an interesting idea, that you're either obeying (not-sinning) or disobeying God (sinning), hence, all sins are equal. I guess I would disagree. I don't think using God's name in vain is equivalent to murdering a person, in the eyes of Jesus, God, or anyone else. Thanks for addressing each of the levels of mistreatment separately. I totally agree with you on those points. Thanks again.

connermt: Thanks for your thoughts. You take a different perspective. Rather than with act is the greater sin, which act is easier to conceal. You also state that some Christian groups openly bash gays, which is a good point.

For future reference, my question concerns which act (being gay or being intolerant of gays) is a worse sin, a "worse sin" also meaning "less moral".

Are there any Christians out there who would give there opinion on this question?

[Bourne20]

Wootah: I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

Divine Insight: Thank you for your thorough reply. That's an interesting idea, that you're either obeying (not-sinning) or disobeying God (sinning), hence, all sins are equal. I guess I would disagree. I don't think using God's name in vain is equivalent to murdering a person, in the eyes of Jesus, God, or anyone else. Thanks for addressing each of the levels of mistreatment separately. I totally agree with you on those points. Thanks again.

connermt: Thanks for your thoughts. You take a different perspective. Rather than with act is the greater sin, which act is easier to conceal. You also state that some Christian groups openly bash gays, which is a good point.

For future reference, my question concerns which act (being gay or being intolerant of gays) is a worse sin, a "worse sin" also meaning "less moral".

Are there any Christians out there who would give there opinion on this question?

[Divine Insight]

Divine Insight: Thank you for your thorough reply. That's an interesting idea, that you're either obeying (not-sinning) or disobeying God (sinning), hence, all sins are equal. I guess I would disagree. I don't think using God's name in vain is equivalent to murdering a person, in the eyes of Jesus, God, or anyone else.

Well, this is certainly not my idea. This is something that many Christian theologians and clergy subscribe to. I'm in total agreement with you. Even though I can understand their idea of reducing sin to either obedience or non-obedience, it still seems that different actions should surely be different levels of sin as you point out.

Fortunately for me, I'm no longer a Christian so these sorts of issues are no longer problematic for me.

I lean toward mysticism. I believe that if there is a way of dealing with moral values it's probably done through something like the mystical idea of "karma". And with karma it makes sense that what goes around comes around in equal measure. So that makes more sense to me.

I personally don't see anything wrong with homosexuality if it's mutual between the partners involved. And I certainly can't imagine anything wrong with it if it's accompanied with genuine affection and love. How could there ever be anything wrong with genuine affection and love?

But you specifically asked for the Christian perspective, so that's what I responded to.

[99percentatheism]

I'm more looking for a Christian perspective on this, but everyone is welcome to answer.

Assuming a person HAD to do one of the following options, which would be worse:

1. Being gay, as in, regularly participating in homosexual activity
or

2. Discriminating against gay people regularly.

Which is a greater sin? Which is more moral or ethical? What do you think Jesus would say?


Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

Intolerance is certainly not always a bad choice. Laws are literally intolerance.

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18:15-17

So, number one is worse.

[Divine Insight]

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18:15-17

So, number one is worse.

How does the verse you posted apply to someone being gay?

The verse starts out with, "If your bother sins against you."

How would someone being gay be a sin "against you"?

[Bourne20]

Well, this is certainly not my idea. This is something that many Christian theologians and clergy subscribe to. I'm in total agreement with you. Even though I can understand their idea of reducing sin to either obedience or non-obedience, it still seems that different actions should surely be different levels of sin as you point out.

Divine Insight: I'm sorry I mistook your statement. We are in agreement. You definitely raise some good points about the Christian thought process. Too often it boils down to "obedience" or "disobedience". People tend to want things to be black and white, either wrong or right (placing those different from themselves in the wrong). I lean toward the belief of "karma" as well, it seems to make more sense than dogmatic restrictions as a guide to life.

99percentatheism: Thank you for your reply. You bring up an interesting point, laws are basically an intolerance of certain actions. The verse you quoted indicates that the bible supports taking action against certain harmful actions.

However, Divine Insight brings up a great point. This verse seems to speak only of actions directed at a person (to cause harm to this person).

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18:15-17

The discrimination outlined in the premise is an action that is, hopefully, considered a sin AND it is directed against a person. So, it fits the statement "sins against you."

On the other hand, being a homosexual (with a consenting partner), while it may be considered a sin, is not an action committed against you. If the other partner wants to bring it up with the church, that's fine. Therefore, this verse does NOT condone Christians taking action against gays.

So, solely in the context of this verse, the bible advocates taking action against the discrimination of gays and the bible does not advocate taking action against homosexual behavior. I think it is reasonable to extrapolate that, in the context of this verse, it is a greater sin to mistreat gays than to be gay.

Sorry if my answer was long-winded, I find this issue so perplexing, and important. I would still like to hear more perspectives of this, maybe more verse citations from the bible as well.