As a Christian, is it better to be gay or to be intolerant?

[Bourne20]

I'm more looking for a Christian perspective on this, but everyone is welcome to answer.

Assuming a person HAD to do one of the following options, which would be worse:
1. Being gay, as in, regularly participating in homosexual activity
or
2. Discriminating against gay people regularly (defined below)

Which is a greater sin? Which is more moral or ethical? What do you think Jesus would say?


To define #2 a little more, by "discriminate against gays" I mean one of four severity levels:
1. Calling them by derogatory names and mocking them (in front them and/or their family)
2. Telling them they are committing a sin and/or are going to hell unless they change (not as a mockery, but serious)
3. Taking (non-violent) action against them, such as firing them based on sexuality
4. Taking violent action against them, or encouraging others to do so

Your can answer can take one or more (preferably all) discrimination levels into consideration.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone!

[Bourne20]

connermt: I know where your coming from. I agree with you for the most part. Too often, Christians use their religion as a mask for their own prejudice.

RichardP: Thanks for writing again. I don't agree with much of your position, but you present some good points.

You wrote:

Right and wrong is decided for the individual. Any assumption that the individual has any input in the matter is bogus. The culture gives authority to the government which then imposes it upon the individual. If the culture recognizes God as the ultimate authority, then the government will bow to Biblical standards of application - meaning equal application of the law to all.

You don't think people hold personal beliefs? Do you think a person's opinions on these matters are just a clone of the societal norm? I would disagree. No doubt the culture influences a person's sense of right and wrong. Government plays into this as well. The government's framework of morals (laws) specifies acceptable conduct in society. I'm not saying government's sense of right and wrong is correct or incorrect, it is determined by societal leaders (who are influenced by culture). The laws forbid a person certain actions and require of them other actions. If a person ACTS outside of this framework (breaks a law), they will be reprimanded by the government. However, a person can BELIEVE what they want to. The government and the culture do not define your beliefs, you do.

Recognizing "God as the ultimate authority" is easier said than done. As I mentioned before, the bible is open for interpretation. The bible concerns many things specific to the culture of the time, such as the verse about slavery I pointed out. This verse is specific to the context of Judea in the years before Christ. According to this verse, God didn't have a problem with people beating their (temporary) slaves. Does that mean God still thinks it is ok to beat slaves today? As you said, slavery and beating were part of the culture of the time. Perhaps God allowed it because of that fact. In today's world, it is not acceptable to keep slaves for any amount of time or to beat anyone to a point that he or she can't stand. In this age, I believe that God would consider this a sin. Not because God changes, but because people and their society change.

The question is, how do we differentiate between the parts of the bible that are specific to the context of 100 AD (or earlier) and the parts of the bible that apply today? Have a look at this verse:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." -Leviticus 20:13 (NIV)

For all we know, this verse could have been contextual to the time and place. I'm not saying it is for sure, but it could be. The fact is, we don't know. But, we CAN have opinions and beliefs. Again, it's our interpretion of the scripture.

You wrote:

You are correct in stating that it is each man's obligation to discover the truth. The caveat here is that once discovered, it is man's obligation to ACCEPT THE TRUTH.

You're right in that a man must accept the truth once found, otherwise it won't do him any good. Perhaps more importantly, a person must act on these beliefs.

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" -James 2:19-20

It is my belief that Jesus would rather have a person be "a good old boy" by loving others as them-self (even if they "dance in the dark with one's private sins") than have that person denigrate others (and lead a good, clean heterosexual life). Following the golden rule is the single most important action (besides loving God himself) a person can do on earth, according to Jesus. If loving others means we have to overlook certain parts of a 3000 year-old text, than so be it.

[Choir Loft]

Recognizing "God as the ultimate authority" is easier said than done. As I mentioned before, the bible is open for interpretation. The bible concerns many things specific to the culture of the time, such as the verse about slavery I pointed out. ....

The question is, how do we differentiate between the parts of the bible that are specific to the context of 100 AD (or earlier) and the parts of the bible that apply today?

"Speaking the truth to one who loves it not invites only interpretation."
- George McDonald

Recognizing God as the ultimate authority requires accepting the truth as it is revealed.
If a thing is wicked, then it is wicked.
If a thing is good, then it is good.
If a thing is forbidden, then it is not to be touched.

Re-interpretation of the Word of God leads only to error and rebellion against God. It serves no righteous purpose and defeats attempts at logic.

"The desire to believe something is much more persuasive than logic."
- Winston Churchill

Foolishness and debauchery rules in a society that is consumed with self-importance.

You cannot serve God and Man at the same time.
- Jesus

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

From my experience, on a high level, christians would likely say the gay act is just as bad as being intolerant.

Intolerance is more often practiced by the gay community than by Christian. The amount and severity of criticism and open bigotry expressed by gays is extreme. The amount of reaction by Christians is miniscule in comparison.

For example, intolerance is not the same thing as the gay act.

The gay act is overt sin and is forbidden by God in His Word. It is the ultimate expression of intolerance in that it denies the truth of scripture and natural law.

Truth is by nature intolerant, if you will accept that definition. Truth of and by itself allows no recourse to error. Truth is truth and would not be so if it were diluted with lies.

Since the word of truth revealed by God in the Bible, cannot be denied it is re-interpreted by scoffers, ignored by sinners and belittled by those who embrace lies and darkness.

The difference, then, between intolerance and the gay act is that the act is overt sin, flying in the face of God, while truth is that which proceeds from God and does not yield to the passions of the flesh and the desires of the heart.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Darias]

From my experience, on a high level, christians would likely say the gay act is just as bad as being intolerant.

Intolerance is more often practiced by the gay community than by Christian. The amount and severity of criticism and open bigotry expressed by gays is extreme. The amount of reaction by Christians is miniscule in comparison.

There is a world of difference between criticism and intolerance. I understand that many gays may resent Christianity because of how they were treated by Christians, but I know of no widespread Christian persecution caused by gays.

However, I do know of countless examples of Christian intolerance, bigotry, and persecution in the highest degree. The perfect example of this is in Uganda, where, due to evangelical propaganda, the paranoid nation now supports a law that calls for life imprisonment for all gays and the death penalty for gays who are well known or respected members of the community. It will go into effect come Christmas.

In my state a pastor recently said this about starving the gays to death in a camp:

[youtube][/youtube]


I shouldn't have to lecture you about using government force on others to regulate morality. We're both libertarians we know that's wrong. But so many Christians not only oppose gay marriage and thus inequality -- and not just equal but separate laws regarding civil unions -- there are a number of Christians who still support sodomy laws... and then there are Christians like in the video -- and lets not forget Westboro Baptist.

This hatred is so ingrained into our "Christian" society, that its driving countless gay teens to suicide!

SHOW ME a homosexual equivalent of this. You will not find systematic persecution of Christians by gays; it doesn't exist -- nothing compares to what Christianity has wrought in our society. Open your eyes. I respectfully ask you to retract your claims because you know as well as I do that you cannot support them in light of the evidence I just showed you.

For example, intolerance is not the same thing as the gay act.

Of course it's not. They are complete opposites. A gay act is consensual between adults, just as heterosexual acts are. A gay act causes no harm towards others. Hatred, on the other hand, can and does cause harm.

Listen to what this gay youth had to endure because of the "Christian love" of his parents:

[center][youtube][/youtube][/center]

The gay act is overt sin and is forbidden by God in His Word. It is the ultimate expression of intolerance in that it denies the truth of scripture and natural law.

We need to establish what the Bible considers sin. Biblical morality is characterized by obedience to god's command, not by the nature of the deed itself. In one passage it is commanded by god to wage genocide and filet babies and take prepubescent virgins as rape trophies, and in another passage it says love your neighbor. God's ways are mysterious indeed, to the point where God's morality only makes sense to him and good and evil as we know it is irrelevant:

[center][/center]

Spare me your talk about natural law. Homosexuality is a given in nature and is found in countless species other than our own. There are evolutionary explanations for why this exists as well. Survival is just as important as reproduction because without that there cannot be a chance to have offspring. Some animals that engage in gay behavior have no offspring of their own but take care of the young in their packs. And although that which is natural is not necessarily applicable to the moral codes of sentient people, there certainly doesn't exist a "natural argument" against homosexuality.

Truth is by nature intolerant, if you will accept that definition. Truth of and by itself allows no recourse to error. Truth is truth and would not be so if it were diluted with lies.

[center][/center]

Truth has no prejudice and cares not for the prejudices of men. Truth is that which has been evidenced and truth cares not for beliefs to the contrary.

Since the word of truth revealed by God in the Bible, cannot be denied it is re-interpreted by scoffers, ignored by sinners and belittled by those who embrace lies and darkness.

When is the last time you have examined this so called "truth?" Have you read Leviticus lately. Along side the "abomination" of homosexuality, is also the abomination of wearing cotton and polyester concurrently. It is a sin to practice usury. According to the New Testament, slavery is advocated and the covering and silence of women is not up to interpretation! And you dare suggest the error of buffet theology? Tell me, what other Christianity is there apart from that which Christians pick and choose?

God's "truth" is neither moral nor logical; it is subject to his whim alone. Might makes right.

And your god supposedly appoints leaders. Your Christ told you to render to Caesar's what is Caesar's, and you don't think your libertarianism is blasphemy?! Why do you feel the itching need to remove the speck from the homosexual's eye?

The difference, then, between intolerance and the gay act is that the act is overt sin, flying in the face of God, while truth is that which proceeds from God and does not yield to the passions of the flesh and the desires of the heart.

Intolerance was supposedly punished at Sodom and Gomorrah, which wasn't an object lesson on "evil gays" but about hospitality and how the common practice of humiliation by male-rape was the chiefest crime against loving they neighbor -- supposedly the greatest commandment that countless Christians have forgot to pick up at the buffet table.

If the compassion of men and our humanity be damned, all for the dictates of a cosmic Kim Jong Ill, what shall become of the earth then?

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

And this is just me, telling you get down from there and see the world from outside the church for once!

[Choir Loft]

There is a world of difference between criticism and intolerance. I understand that many gays may resent Christianity because of how they were treated by Christians, but I know of no widespread Christian persecution caused by gays.

Here is a good example of two methods used to justify wickedness. One is deliberate confusion and the other is a lie masquerading as the truth.

The difference between criticism and intolerance, as I wrote before, is the truth.
Truth by its own nature is intolerant and exclusive. It is intolerant of lies and deceit and exclusive in that it admits to no admission of deceit as being valid. Criticism is that which is given to modify or improve behavior. The two are somewhat similar in that they can overlap to correct deviant behavior such as the gay life style.

You know of no widespread persecution by gays of Christians? They insinuate themselves into our sacred worship services, insult us with their public behavior and insist that their deviant life style be openly displayed in the media as being acceptable - yet all the while yell and scream intolerance when Christians object.
This is violence on a massive scale. To deny it is to support a lie.

* * * Save your videos and animated lectures justifying the sexual abominations of society. I won't waste my time watching them. They are the same as the NAZI propaganda films of the 1930s which justified extermination of the Jews.* * *


I shouldn't have to lecture you about using government force on others to regulate morality.

The gay life style is disruptive and destructive of the family unit (man + woman = childen], which is the basic building block of society. It is an historical fact that when the family unit is disrupted, redefined or destroyed altogether society as a whole collapses. In some cases, governments are extremely wary about holding power close to home and the aberrant behavior is firmly squashed. In the OT, the Bible calls for the death penalty. In the NT, which focuses on the spiritual family unit - excommunication is called for. This is a type of spiritual death and is a continuation of the pattern.

You say you shouldn't have to lecture me, so why do you defend an untenable position - Biblically speaking. The thread here is about morality, spirituality and behavior not political consequences.

This hatred is so ingrained into our "Christian" society, that its driving countless gay teens to suicide!
Taking one's life is a personal act. Blaming someone else for it is an act of cowardice. According to the church suicide is a sin. No one would preach or encourage such an act. To accuse the church of that is a lie and another example of hate language directed toward the church.

Suicide is a sin. Gay is sin. Two sins do not make right. You cannot justify the gay lifestyle based upon self inflicted murder.

Nobody yells foul when the church is falsely accused. <- Another example of gay persecution.

A gay act is consensual between adults, just as heterosexual acts are. A gay act causes no harm towards others.

Two lies. The gay act is now encouraged for children as young as five. It is taught and encouraged in schools and in the media. It is common and it is accepted. The gay act is NOT restricted to adults.

The gay act destroys the family. It transmits disease which can be fatal and it exposes those who endorse it to a community of people who also participate in the drug culture and illegal activity.

Spare me your talk about natural law. Homosexuality is a given in nature and is found in countless species other than our own.There are evolutionary explanations for why this exists as well.

Spare me talk? Rejection of truth is the issue here. Natural law defines homosexual behavior. You are not a plant are you? There is no 'human' reason in nature why the gay life style is justified. It is a matter of choice and as such can be modified. The beasts and plants have no such choices.

Evolution is a theory and has many errors in its premise, not to mention massive holes in evidence. It has yet to be proven scientifically.

Since the word of truth revealed by God in the Bible, cannot be denied it is re-interpreted by scoffers, ignored by sinners and belittled by those who embrace lies and darkness.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Darias]

There is a world of difference between criticism and intolerance. I understand that many gays may resent Christianity because of how they were treated by Christians, but I know of no widespread Christian persecution caused by gays.

Here is a good example of two methods used to justify wickedness. One is deliberate confusion and the other is a lie masquerading as the truth.

The difference between criticism and intolerance, as I wrote before, is the truth.
Truth by its own nature is intolerant and exclusive. It is intolerant of lies and deceit and exclusive in that it admits to no admission of deceit as being valid. Criticism is that which is given to modify or improve behavior. The two are somewhat similar in that they can overlap to correct deviant behavior such as the gay life style.

You know of no widespread persecution by gays of Christians? They insinuate themselves into our sacred worship services, insult us with their public behavior and insist that their deviant life style be openly displayed in the media as being acceptable - yet all the while yell and scream intolerance when Christians object.
This is violence on a massive scale. To deny it is to support a lie.

* * * Save your videos and animated lectures justifying the sexual abominations of society. I won't waste my time watching them. They are the same as the NAZI propaganda films of the 1930s which justified extermination of the Jews.* * *

1.) For your information, the first video wasn't a lecture justifying homosexuality, it was a sermon demonizing it. Because you won't watch the primary source of him actually talking, maybe you'll read it:

I had a way -- I figured a way out, a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers, but I couldn't get it past the Congress. Build a great big large fence, 150- or 100-mile-long. Put all the lesbians in there. Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals. And have that fence electrified, so they can't get out.

Feed them. And you know what? In a few years, they will die out. You know why? They can't reproduce.

There you have it, a Christian pastor justifying the extermination of the "abominations."

And you want to equate open calls for electrified death camps for gays equivalent to the possibility of a gay person being in your church?

So, Gay persecution of Christians is thus:

Christians nationwide are forced to love their neighbors and tolerate their very existence; in some states they must endure the misery of knowing that their fellow man has the same legal rights as they do. Come quickly Lord Jesus!


And you wish to take that and not only equate but elevate it to the point of persecution... simultaneously ignoring the Kill the Gays Bill in CHRISTIAN Uganda? Drafted by Christians, inspired by Christians, voted on by CHRISTIANS. And you think the systematic extermination and lifetime imprisonment of gays is nothing compared to the possibility that someone might be a closeted homosexual in your church, or that Ellen might be on TV tonight?!

Gay people exist = Violence

Extermination/dehumanization/oppression of gay people = Love and Truth

Oh okay, got it...

I find your persecution complex combined with your denial of actual persecution revolting in the extreme.



2.)The second video was a Christian gay teen forced to undergo orientation reversal "therapy." Because you didn't actually watch him speak, I found an article about it that you can read in this post:

'Tiny needles were stuck into my fingers and I was electrocuted': Victim of Baptist gay conversion therapy describes how he was tortured at 12

Beaten repeatedly by his father after innocently telling him, aged 12, that he was attracted to his friend
Told he had AIDS, that he was the only gay person in the country and the government would kill him if they found out
Hands burned and frozen with ice while he was shown images of men hugging
Electrocuted for a month while shown explicit pictures of men
Has since been excommunicated by his family and warned by his father that he will shoot him if he ever comes home

At just 12 years of age, Samuel Brinton had no idea he was not supposed to be attracted to other boys.

So when he told his father, a Southern Baptist missionary from Iowa, that friends had found a Playboy magazine - and that he didn't get excited like they did because he only felt that way about his best friend, Dale - he could never have predicted the torture that was to follow.

After being knocked out cold by his father, so hard that he had to be rushed to the Emergency Room, Samuel was repeatedly beaten up before being subjected to months of excruciating aversion therapy.

He was initially told he had AIDS and that he was the only gay person left in the country - because the government had killed all the rest of them and would come after him too if they found out he was alive.

Freezing ice cubes were placed in his hands while he was shown pictures of men hugging - so that he would associate pain with intimacy between men.

He was then repeatedly burned when shown similar images but untouched when images of men and women together were shown.

Eventually, he was subjected to what was called the 'Month of Hell'. Tiny needles were stuck into his small fingers and he was electrocuted repeatedly while shown explicit pictures of men.

After being excommunicated by his family almost a decade later, Samuel has spoken about the ordeal he suffered as a child at the hands of his Southern Baptist community.

Samuel was interviewed as part of a series of gay, lesbian bisexual and transgender stories from across America found by a group called I'm From Driftwood.

The forum's founder and executive director Nathan Manske travelled the country with two colleagues to discover the many untold stories of struggles faced by gay teens in small towns and cities.

Samuel, who now studies at Kansas State University, described in detail the abuse he suffered as a result of the innocent admission he made to his father when he was a child.

He speaks of being hospitalised by his father six times before the therapy even began, before describing in detail the 'treatment' to which he was subjected.

'The Month of Hell consisted of tiny needles being stuck into my fingers and then pictures of explicit acts between men would be shown and I'd be electrocuted,' he said.

After months of torture he considered suicide, climbing onto the roof of the three-storey building where he lived.

His mother's attempt to lure him down consisted of her saying: 'I'll love you again if you just change.'

'It's not the thing to say to someone standing on the edge of a building,' Samuel said.

He eventually came down and convinced his parents he had, in fact, changed - a façade that he maintained until leaving home for university, and one which brought an end to his brutal therapy.

After coming to terms with his sexuality away from home, Samuel returned to come out to them once again.

He told his mother and after she told his father he returned to find all his belongings outside the front door.

He has since been warned by his father that he will kill him if he ever comes back.

'I've tried to call them multiple times,' he said. 'I try to keep calling. I want contact.

'The last time [my dad told me] he would shoot me if I ever tried to walk in the door again.'

This type of treatment, bullying in school, disownment by parents, church leaders who claim there's something wrong with them. THIS IS what leads to gay teen suicide, not their love for their boyfriends.



3.) And since you brought up the Nazis, let's talk about them.

Hitler killed Ernst Röhm to consolodate power for himself and to purge the Nazis of political rivals and gay persons. Röhm was gay and one of the reasons Hitler shot him because he was afraid nations like Russia might make fun of German forces. Hitler was so bent on exterminating the "abominations" from his population that not only did he persecute the Jews but also homosexuals, who suffered the same fate:

They were forced to wear pink triangles while in the camps:




One reason Hitler was able to round up so many people who did not fit his vision is because the Nazi propaganda machine was good at dehumanizing people. Words like "abominations," "degenerates," etc. all have a hand in that. When you see gay or Jews as human beings like you, well it becomes harder to hate them.

I shouldn't have to lecture you about using government force on others to regulate morality.

The gay life style is disruptive and destructive of the family unit (man + woman = childen], which is the basic building block of society. It is an historical fact that when the family unit is disrupted, redefined or destroyed altogether society as a whole collapses. In some cases, governments are extremely wary about holding power close to home and the aberrant behavior is firmly squashed. In the OT, the Bible calls for the death penalty. In the NT, which focuses on the spiritual family unit - excommunication is called for. This is a type of spiritual death and is a continuation of the pattern.

The OT also calls for the death penalty for adultery. If we practiced that today half of the Christian population would be wiped out by their own dogma. But they aren't even "spiritually" ostracized.

The New Testament says nothing of a spiritual family unit. The New Testament calls for loving thy neighbor. That is what Jesus supposedly said is it not? You are sitting here asking yourself "who is my neighbor?"

What you said reminds me of this:

There are those homosexuals who take the view: what I do is my business, a purely private matter. However, all things which take place in the sexual sphere are not the private affair of the individual, but signify the life and death of the nation [. . . .]

I have now decided upon the following: in each case, these people will naturally be publicly degraded, expelled, and handed over to the courts. Following completion of the punishment imposed by the court, they will be sent, by my order, to a concentration camp, and they will be shot in the concentration camp, while attempting to escape. I will make that known by order to the unit to which the person so infected belonged. Thereby, I hope finally to have done with persons of this type in the SS, and the increasingly healthy blood which we are cultivating for Germany, will be kept pure.

Nazi policies towards gays conformed to the OT vision seamlessly.

You say you shouldn't have to lecture me, so why do you defend an untenable position - Biblically speaking. The thread here is about morality, spirituality and behavior not political consequences.

The history of Nazi's rise to power illustrates how false beliefs have political and bloody consequences. Hateful beliefs do not exist in a vacuum, as we can see with the new law going into effect in Uganda. Hate infects everything and spares no one.

Your views concerning gays are not compatible with your professed libertarian values about individuality, human rights, and freedom. Your stance betrays those ideals. Everything you have said in this thread however is quite compatible with fascism. Imposing your vision of morality on everyone else via law and barring your neighbors, your fellow Americans, and even fellow Christians from enjoying the same civil rights as yourself -- that's the very definition of tyranny.

A gay act is consensual between adults, just as heterosexual acts are. A gay act causes no harm towards others.

Two lies. The gay act is now encouraged for children as young as five. It is taught and encouraged in schools and in the media. It is common and it is accepted. The gay act is NOT restricted to adults.

The gay act destroys the family. It transmits disease which can be fatal and it exposes those who endorse it to a community of people who also participate in the drug culture and illegal activity.

They don't teach children how to have gay sex in school. They teach children to tolerate others, including gays. This to to prevent bullying and the suicides that result from that. You can't spread homosexuality via instruction. It is an innate attraction that you grow up with. What you can do is teach that everyone of us are humans and we don't deserve to be bullied for who we are.

Aids does not spontaneously generate from gay sex. Aids was originally a virus that infected monkeys, and humans became infected in Africa after eating the infected chimp for dinner. Aids kills far more children and women and heterosexual people than homosexuals.

HIV can spread via dirty needles, but that is a poor argument to support the drug war which has failed to reduce usage and has cost countless taxpayer dollars. If drug use was legal in this country, like in Portugal, the spread of disease would be reduced.

Divorce destroys the family. Teen suicide due to bullying and shaming destroys the family. Opposing the legalization of marriage and adoption for gays prevents the formation of families. Being gay does none of the above.

[connermt]

From my experience, on a high level, christians would likely say the gay act is just as bad as being intolerant.

Intolerance is more often practiced by the gay community than by Christian. The amount and severity of criticism and open bigotry expressed by gays is extreme. The amount of reaction by Christians is miniscule in comparison.

Then you have seen very little of the gay community. When a minority tolerates the wrath of the majority, they tend to become more tolerant of others. No one group is immune to intolerance - giving of getting. However, christians are held to a higher standard. Fortunately, they have higher to fall when they do come crashing back to reality.

For example, intolerance is not the same thing as the gay act.

I'm not sure the point of this sentence.

The gay act is overt sin and is forbidden by God in His Word. [./quote] Very incorrect. Modern interpretation leads one to believe this, but that's not true. You can't honestly say the act of homosexuality is against god base don his word because 1) 'his word' is a book of stories written by men thus it would be against the understanding of those men and 2) the term homosexuality didn't exist when the bible was written, edited, then re-written.
]quote]
It is the ultimate expression of intolerance in that it denies the truth of scripture and natural law.

When someone uses the bible and "natural" in the same sentence we know we're in trouble. The term "natural" equates to nature, not a book written by men (no matter how much you want to think otherwise). As such, homosexuality happens in nature and is, by definition, natural.

Truth is by nature intolerant, if you will accept that definition.

Not true. I can show you how 1+1=2 without being a jerk about it. Intolerance has nothing to do with the truth, and everything to do with the one delivering "the truth"

Truth of and by itself allows no recourse to error.

Belief is a large portion of 'truth'. People believe their religion is true without any proof to support it. Belief doesn't make something more or less true when there's no data to support it.

Truth is truth and would not be so if it were diluted with lies.

You mean like god exists as a truth which can't be proven and thus, must be considered a lie?

Since the word of truth revealed by God in the Bible,

A book written by men. For it to be the word of god, you must believe it to be. Unless, of course, you can prove it by imperical evidence. Which you can't.

...cannot be denied it is re-interpreted by scoffers, ignored by sinners and belittled by those who embrace lies and darkness.

It most certainly can be - and is

The difference, then, between intolerance and the gay act is that the act is overt sin,

Not true. The difference is in the people who define it as such, as not all christians agree it is a sin.

Though none of this excludes the fact that christianity is rampant with intolerance, as well as hypocrisy and arrogance from my decades of experience within that cult.

[Choir Loft]

Being gay does none of the above. [/size]

Another lie upon which to base all previous assertions. Gayness is a choice. One chooses to perform the act or not. It's as simple as that.

That there are pressures to do so is indeed true, yet it is within the scope of man's powers to deny his base impulses whether it be of gay sex or heterosexual relations.

Both are forbidden, yet I read nothing of worth to support or admit to this point from those who've chosen the unnatural methods. Celibacy has long been a valid alternative to sexual diseases and aberrant behavior.

Making parallel comparisons between the persecution of Jews and homosexuals is also a misrepresentation - a blatant lie. A Jew is born a jew and cannot be otherwise without denying his own flesh. A gay person can choose not to obey his base impluses and thus remain apart from persecution.

The theory of evolution was referred to in an earlier post. It will be discovered by anyone who chooses to actually read Mr. Darwin's fantasies that black folk are classified by Darwin as being on a par with monkees and apes, that persecution and murder of persons within a society that are not compatible with said society is justified under the beastial law of survival of the fittest. Such murder is further defined as eugenics and includes, but is not limited to gays, jews, the elderly and infirm, AND CHRISTIANS.(*) Please don't quote Darwin to me when you justify your wicked attitudes and behavior. That monster puts us all in the same category. We are certainly not.

We are created by God. We are created for a purpose. One of those purposes is to obey the laws that our merciful and just God has given to us. One of those laws is that man should not have sex, any sex, outside of marriage to a woman.

There are impulses and tendencies to violence, to abnormal sex, to robbery and to all sorts of debauchery but man is expected to use the self-control that God also gave him to obey divine laws. They were given for our good and for the good of the society. That they are often and frequently disobeyed for personal gain and satisfaction is a matter of historical record, yet they do not besmirch the rightness of the law itself.

And if a man sin, there is an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous who is not willing that any man should suffer death or judgment but that all may come to the knowledge and salvation that may be imparted. All one has to do is accept Christ as their savior and agree to follow Him.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Quotes provided upon request.

[Choir Loft]

Then you have seen very little of the gay community. When a minority tolerates the wrath of the majority, they tend to become more tolerant of others. No one group is immune to intolerance - giving of getting. However, christians are held to a higher standard. Fortunately, they have higher to fall when they do come crashing back to reality.

I have seen quite enough of the filth, intolerance, hate language, and sin of the gay community thank you very much.

One of my best high school friends was murdered during a gay act by a gay man. It wasn't Christianity that killed him, it was his own wickedness and the twisted community he had chosen to inhabit. He was a fine handsome young man with wonderful prospects for a productive life when all of it was taken away by the people and actions that are the very definition of sin and human violence and disregard for others. Now my friend is dead. DEAD!

Is this love? Only the most debased and cruel person on earth would believe that, yet it is the cornerstone of gayness. It is filth and sewage on a massive scale, nothing less. Yet I have no doubt that even this sorry affair will be turned by some self-important, self-deluded fool into an assault upon righteous living and Christ Himself.

I have seen personally and publicly the actions and intent of the gay community quite clearly and openly. Among other events I've been present in NYC during parades when one float in particular, sponsored by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc., is flaunted in front of public eyes. It is an open insult to Christians who have devoted their lives and hearts and souls to the service of others and it is displayed by those who consider only their own sin, recklessness and vile deeds above those of holy orders. For a gay person to claim the moral high ground is the most vile of lies and misrepresentations.

I am fully aware of the drug culture that is inherent in the gay life style and that the transmission of horrible sexual disease is an aspect of it.

Did some Christian force a gay person into bed with an infected person and torture them until they gave themselves? No. Yet gays love to do that very thing, all the while pretending it is the fault of religion and of God. Of all people, gays are the most deceived and that is because their own appetites will not let them admit the truth.

Why is so much energy expended to justify the gross disgusting life that gays live, if there isn't still some deep understanding that the whole thing is wrong? Why is so much effort and language expended to lie about the innocence of gays and to redirect their own guilt upon guiltless others if not from a deep seated sense of guilt?

Why are innocent children being forced in school to listen to these lies and to accept the gay life style as being valid and good? Why are impressionable young people being innundated by the media and entertainment industry to live the lie of homosexuality? TV shows such as Glee, which is full of back-biting and bickering and nothing of redeeming social value, are broadcast to the public under the guise of entertainment when it is actually blatant propaganda of the worst sort.

No one can can dance with the devil for free!

Sooner or later (usually sooner) it will demand payment for sin and that payment is never ever pleasant or good. The wages of sin is death, so the Good Book says.

Gays cannot force their guilt upon Christ or those who follow Him, for they alone are responsible for the actions they have determined in their passion to take. No righteous man or church has ever forced a person into gayness or deliberated caused him or her to partake of the devils wickedness.

It is gay actions that kill gay people, none other.

If there was a shred of decency in them, gays would admit to these abuses and dangers. Gays murder one another in dark places (you cannot deny the danger in such meetings - it's part of the game and you know it). The diseases transmitted from one gay to another are passed willingly and willfully. Gays cannot rightly blame Christians for that.

This is the very nature of sin; to deny it is sin, to deny it has been done at all, to attempt to transfer the guilt to someone else and to blame anyone and everyone else in the world for its woes except the one principally responsible - one's self.

For any sinnner the answer is the cross of Christ. God has provided life and mercy to those who will accept the only transfer of guilt possible - to Jesus upon the cross. It is His blood that has been shed for sinners. If they turn from their evil ways and accept God's grace they will know forgiveness and the life and mercy only God can give.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Darias]

Being gay does none of the above.

Another lie upon which to base all previous assertions. Gayness is a choice. One chooses to perform the act or not. It's as simple as that.

That there are pressures to do so is indeed true, yet it is within the scope of man's powers to deny his base impulses whether it be of gay sex or heterosexual relations.

Both are forbidden, yet I read nothing of worth to support or admit to this point from those who've chosen the unnatural methods. Celibacy has long been a valid alternative to sexual diseases and aberrant behavior.

Not everyone has the willpower or the desire to remain celibate for the rest of their lives. I want to find a woman, fall in love, and have a family -- without someone else telling me I don't have the right to marry or that I am not human because I love a woman.

In the EXACT same way, most gays desire the same thing, except with the same sex rather than the opposite.

It is cruel to say no, you can't ever see or think or touch the one you love because some god said something in some ancient book. Your proposition is not that of liberty, but slavery.

Making parallel comparisons between the persecution of Jews and homosexuals is also a misrepresentation - a blatant lie. A Jew is born a jew and cannot be otherwise without denying his own flesh. A gay person can choose not to obey his base impluses and thus remain apart from persecution.

You brought up the Holocaust in the first place, I responded by reminding you that other people were also dehumanized, starved, and slaughtered in the death camps in addition to Jews, which were the largest group. But there were even Jewish homosexuals who were branded as such.

50,000 received severe jail sentences in brutal conditions. Most homosexuals were not sent to concentration camps but were instead exposed to inhumane treatment in police prisons. There they could be subjected to hard labour and torture, or be executed or experimented upon. The Nazis dehumanised the prisoners in their camps and some of their prisons by giving them a symbol, which coded them according to the reason for their detention, and assigned them a number to replace their name. Some 10-15,000 people were deported for being gay to concentration camps. Many, but not all, were assigned pink triangles. Most died in the camps, often from exhaustion. Many were castrated and some subjected to gruesome medical experiments. Collective murder actions were undertaken against gay detainees, exterminating hundreds at a time. Some people belonged to more than one targeted group. For example, Jewish gays wore a yellow triangle and a pink triangle together.

Scientific evidence suggests that people are biologically predisposed to their sexual orientation. A gay man can no more reverse his innate attraction to other men than you could undo your desire, love, and feelings for a woman.

What you are proposing is a standard that you cannot even place on yourself. It is similar to teaching a child that it is sinful to urinate. And so every time they do, they bare guilt and shame that would not otherwise exist.

Would you like to be stereotyped and dehumanized for acting upon your desires, for having a loved one and a relationship -- or for just having the feelings for women?

What did Jesus say about do unto others as you would have them do to you? Have you forgotten this?

The theory of evolution was referred to in an earlier post. It will be discovered by anyone who chooses to actually read Mr. Darwin's fantasies that black folk are classified by Darwin as being on a par with monkees and apes, that persecution and murder of persons within a society that are not compatible with said society is justified under the beastial law of survival of the fittest. Such murder is further defined as eugenics and includes, but is not limited to gays, jews, the elderly and infirm, AND CHRISTIANS.(*) Please don't quote Darwin to me when you justify your wicked attitudes and behavior. That monster puts us all in the same category. We are certainly not.

I often use quotes to support my argument, which you have not done. You have made a rapid fire set of claims without supporting them and I do not wish to use the same methods. I would post links but I am afraid you won't click on them, so I post quotes in full here.

Darwin was a Christian. His views on race were a reflection of the culture of his day, but even he was kinder than most of his peers, who viewed Africans as non-humans. I can't defend the man's racism, but that doesn't mean his science and discoveries become automatically false.

I don't share Galileo Galilei's religious faith, but his science about heliocentrism was sound.

Science does not have prophets. Science has been improved upon immensely over the past few hundred years. Science improves itself when new discoveries are made. Our knowledge of the world evolves, it is not enshrined in the words of one man.

Social Darwinism, an ideology that favored eugenics and other idiotic unscientific ideas was not taught by Darwin. It was popularized by Herbert Spencer and others, who thought applying biological observations to society was a good idea.

Survival of the fittest does not mean survival of the strongest... it means whichever member of a species that lives long enough to have offspring is "most fit." Natural selection is just another name for it. However, the phrase isn't used as often nowadays because people don't understand the meaning behind it. Again Spencer, not Darwin, came up with the wording. Spencer obviously had a different interpretation of it, a wrong one.

Darwin was a racist in his description of native peoples by today's standards, in much the same way Churchill was a racist, being perfectly okay with the gassing of Kurds during the early 20th century. But Darwin was also an abolitionist. His research was also driven by that want to abolish slavery.

We are created by God. We are created for a purpose. One of those purposes is to obey the laws that our merciful and just God has given to us. One of those laws is that man should not have sex, any sex, outside of marriage to a woman.

This is just a statement of belief and there's no way I can debate it with you other than to postulate my own view:

There is no evidence of a creator.
There is no evidence of a cosmic purpose that fates us to live our lives a certain way (although we can find purpose for ourselves).
It is questionable to label Yahweh as merciful or just in light of a thorough reading of the Old Testament.
And another of those laws is that man cannot eat pork, man cannot wear two different kinds of clothing at the same time, man cannot pick up sticks on the sabbath lest he be stoned.

Biblical Marriage as defined by the Bible is thus:





You found the law that your prejudice agreed with and chucked the rest.