A place for good non-believers

[lostguest]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

[Dantalion]

[Replying to post 1 by lostguest]

Technically, they do send themselves to hell. The Bible doesn't say anything about being good to get into heaven. It says that all you need to do is believe that Christ is your savior and redeemer. It's as simple as that. You either go to heaven or hell, no place in between.

Kinda depends on what theist you're talking to, which renders the whole concept even more absurd.
I can understand individuality within religion, but an agreement to the actual core concepts should be a minimum wouldn't you think?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by lostguest]

I'm guessing that good atheists or agnostics will BECOME believers in Heaven, and all the more meritorious for them because they followed the Good for it's own sake without thought of reward in the afterlife.

I believe that they get there by following the Holy Spirit of JHVH, who I believe resides within us all, whether they realize it or not. Consience is as natural (in potential) in us as instinct in an animal, implanted by our Creator. Now whether or not we become saints, (believer and unbeliever alike) or sociopaths depends on how we respond to the indwelling voice of right and wrong. Behavior over belief. Wishful thinking? Maybe, but that's how I see it anyway.

I think even the Bible alludes to this. (Proverbs 21:21)

[ttruscott]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway. So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.
To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

Because non-belief is a separation from that which may be but is not believed in. IF you are on the North Pole, any separation from that place is to move South. If you are with GOD, the essence of love and holiness, then any movement away from HIM is to leave love and holiness and to go towards / become evil whether you accept these definitions of morality or not.

Perfection is found in your relationship with YHWH, not in your good acts here on earth. In fact it is often much easier to be a reprobate "good moral person" on earth since satan is not be-devilling them all the time with temptations and twisted thoughts about reality.

As well, Christians of course believe that all non-belief is culpable, that GOD has indeed given everyone in existence absolute proof of HIS divinity and power but some people willingly forget that proof and hide it deep in their subconscious because their love for sin is stronger than their love for the truth. This is the meaning of Romans chapter 1, the reason we reject non-belief as innocent.

As too what happens to these people who chose to withhold their faith from YHWH by their own true free will decisions: I am led by Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: to think that GOd did not make any special place of them to inhabit but merely will send them from HIS presence into that which is not in HIS presence or under HIS influence or within HIS reality.

The damned did not choose this hell but chose to believe that YHWH was a false god and that HIS promises were without power and HIS warnings of the natural consequences of becoming eternally evil by rejecting HIM as GOD were without truth...alas, alack.

Peace, Ted

[Overcomer]

lostguest wrote:

So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God?

Because there is no such thing as a "good" person apart from God.

There is a big difference between doing good and being good. I'm talking ontology here. All human beings are born with sin natures. That means all of us are born "not good" in our very essence. We are capable of doing some good deeds simply because we are made in God's image, but that ability has been marred by sin.

We cannot make ourselves good in essence by doing good deeds. We remain sinners who just happen to do something right now and again. Enter Christ. He atoned for our sins at the cross. When we accept his gift of salvation, he recreates us, bringing our spirits, once dead in sin, alive in him. We are given right-standing with God.

That's why Christians use the expression "born-again" to refer to our new selves as followers of Jesus. He has changed our very essence. While we do not immediately become sin-free, the power of sin over us is broken and the Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome it as we go through a life-long process of sanctification in which we grow more like Jesus -- a goal which will be fully reached in the next life when we will stand before God ontologically good at last!

Those people who reject Christ remain dead in their sins. They were born with sin natures and they die with sin natures, and, therefore, they remain separated from God because God cannot have sin in his presence. It is a total affront to him. Those who reject Christ commit the only unforgivable sin -- refusing to be saved and sanctified by the Lord, choosing to remain sinners, refusing to be recreated as good in their very being.

And God did create a place for such people. The Bible refers to it as the lake of fire. And yes, people end up there by their own choice. I don't quite understand why atheists get so upset about the idea of hell. After all, they haven't wanted anything to do with God in this life. Why are they upset at the fact that he confirms that choice in the next?

[UNBeliever905]

amazing...

at least ive finally seen someone admit it. "there are no good people that do not believe, and if you do not believe you are unable to do good"

absolutely brilliant how ignorant people can be. Can any of you prove with one source how that is so? Bible doesnt count because you are then arguing white noise and i refuse to listen anymore

[smalltownatheist]

I don't quite understand why atheists get so upset about the idea of hell. After all, they haven't wanted anything to do with God in this life. Why are they upset at the fact that he confirms that choice in the next?

You don't see why telling someone that they deserve to be tortured forever wouldn't make them smile? Watch this:
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That's why. The doctrine of hell is morally repugnant. Your faith provides you with blinders, because it allows you to say these things to people without feeling guilt or even a basic sense of how terrible such an idea is. And you can wipe your conscience clean and sleep at night by claiming that, not only do we deserve never-ending torture, but that we would choose it for ourselves.

[ttruscott]

Apologists often say that God doesn't send non-believers to hell, they send themselves by not wanting to be with God. But if that is the case then non-believers don't want to go to hell either and yet they supposedly end up there anyway.

So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God? Why would God create only two options in which one of them "punishes" equally people who do really evil things and people who may actually be better human beings than many Christians but simply do not believe in God.


To me it's the equivalent of someone inviting people to his birthday party and whoever decides to come will have lots of fun, food and everything else but whoever refuses the invitation gets sent to a North Korean prison for life.

[rearranged and bold for clarity for me...]

Christians do not try to solve such questions, we accept the situation as true (hell exists and some will end there) and then look for a reconciliation with other statements about HIS reality.

Since the evil of the elect and the non-elect reprobate is equal in ultimate disvalue, that is, one set of sins is not less than the other, and no one is a better person than the other and rather than designating some just as good as others it is more in keeping with the tenor of the scriptures to describe them as equally evil,

and since they are treated differently when judged for their evil, it is apparent that the sinfulness of their evil is not the determining factor in the disposition of their case when judged.

This is reflected in the doctrine that there are two kinds of people living on earth: the elect who can be forgiven and the non-elect reprobate who cannot be forgiven. The difference in their treatment is found in themselves, not in their sins.

Since the discussion is about GOD and HE defines HIMself as loving, our understanding of how we came to be separated into these two groups must conform to HIS love, that is, we do not consider that those so called "Christians" who claim GOD creates evil and created us as evil ready to be punished as offering anything of value.

But if GOD did not create us as evil then we must have self created ourselves as evil (since our evil is a given to Christians) and the process self created some sinners as able to be forgiven and others self created themselves as sinners unable to be forgiven, by our own true free will decisions.

In short, (very short): we chose between accepting YHWH as our GOD and accepting HIS promise of election to heaven by the salvation of our sins OR rejecting YHWH as a false god and rejecting his promises of election and salvation as the mutterings of a fool knowing that if they were wrong and HE was GOD, they would be eternally addicted to the enslaving power of evil and hell was the natural consequence.

This choice, once made, separated all those who were now elect and able to be forgiven if they should ever sin from all those who were now non-elect reprobates, unable to be forgiven as they had chosen to reject that possibility completely. When GOD started to put into action HIS plan of judgment of the reprobate, some of HIS elect rebelled against that plan claiming that hell was too harsh for the sin they had committed and for this idolatry they too became evil in HIS sight, needing the promised redemption and sanctification.

THEN HE created the earth and populated it with sinners, both elect sinners and reprobate sinners so the sinful elect could learn about the necessity of hell and at the same time be redeemed by Christ's death and their having their addiction to sin broken and so be brought to holiness.

Once the last sinful elect is holy, that is, by choice they will never sin or stand against GOD again, the judgment will take place.

But we consider that while GOD is a righteous judge against evil, HE is also loving and it is somewhat disturbing that HE created as special place of special torment for those who self created themselves as eternally evil. A new take on this topic has arisen to reconcile these two aspects of GOD by the fact that there is room within HIS creation for hell to be a natural consequence of their sin.

If you jump out of the boat, you get wet. If you are put out of the boat, your getting wet may not be the reason you are put out but just a fact of being put out. When GOD puts those who self created themselves as eternally sinful out of HIS chosen sphere of influence and attention, that is, out of HIS chosen reality, He is not necessarily doing it to torture them but as He reported before our first free will decision about HIM, this place is one of extreme pain, like unto a fire.

The influence of Dantes Inferno should not be taken as Christian doctrine that He created hell to torture sinners. Hell is the natural consequence of becoming so other to HIS purpose of heavenly bliss they must be removed to their own place of existence, just like you suggested, but because it is outside of all HIS care and attention, it is a place of suffering.

This place being called the 'outer darkness' by Jesus suggests to me that GOD's created reality is not infinite and if it is not infinite it has an edge and that past that edge is the outer darkness...whether the edge is a space/time edge or dimensional or whatever.

Therefore:
- All who can be saved, will be saved.
- Only those who can't be saved, will not be saved.
- Only the true free will decision to not accept salvation from YHWH self created the un-saveable as 'un-saveable.'
- When they are put out of HIS created reality they will experience hell as fire, though the intent is in the 'putting out', not the pain.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

amazing...

at least ive finally seen someone admit it. "there are no good people that do not believe, and if you do not believe you are unable to do good"

absolutely brilliant how ignorant people can be. Can any of you prove with one source how that is so? Bible doesnt count because you are then arguing white noise and i refuse to listen anymore

GOOD is used as a reference point in this type of discussion, not as a defining feature of 'people,' because none are good. A better distinction would be those of true faith after their sanctification unto holiness vrs those who are not so blessed.

The Bible is just one piece of evidence, it is not and never was conceived to be proof, a fallacy perpetrated by non-believers. And as evidence, it is not even the defining evidence of GOD but is only supporting evidence to the indwelling Holy Spirit in the Christian, leading him to sanctification.

Peace, Ted

[smalltownatheist]

But if GOD did not create us as evil then we must have self created ourselves as evil...

GOOD is used as a reference point in this type of discussion, not as a defining feature of 'people,' because none are good.

Religion attempts to hijack morality and define "good" and "evil" in terms that can only arise via their God. But morality isn't a theistic concept unto itself and those making broad claims like those above should be interrupted and pinned down to definition.

So I'll ask you, ttruscott: What is evil?

[Goat]

lostguest wrote:

So, why wouldn't God create a place for people who are otherwise just as good as believers but whose only "sin" was not believing or accepting God?

Because there is no such thing as a "good" person apart from God.

There is a big difference between doing good and being good. I'm talking ontology here. All human beings are born with sin natures. That means all of us are born "not good" in our very essence. We are capable of doing some good deeds simply because we are made in God's image, but that ability has been marred by sin.

That is the claim. However, it seems to me that this is an attitude that is preying on some people's lack of self esteem to try to lure them into religion.

To me, the whole 'original sin' is a fake disease that 'salvation' is snake oil for.