What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?
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What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?
Post #1If God knew even before he created the universe which souls would accept him and end up going to heaven why didn't he just take those souls directly to him upon their creation rather than having them, all the other ones that would end up getting condemned and all the animals he created experience all the pain and suffering that life offers? Isn't it sadistic for him to just sit and watch all the suffering when he already knew what the outcome would be before it happened and could have just skipped to the end? Please keep in mind in your answers that I'm not talking about predestination or suppression of free will.
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ttruscott
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Re: What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?
Post #2The outcome is not as important as how they get there. To do it your way would be a suppression of their free will.lostguest wrote: If God knew even before he created the universe which souls would accept him and end up going to heaven why didn't he just take those souls directly to him upon their creation rather than having them, all the other ones that would end up getting condemned and all the animals he created experience all the pain and suffering that life offers? Isn't it sadistic for him to just sit and watch all the suffering when he already knew what the outcome would be before it happened and could have just skipped to the end? Please keep in mind in your answers that I'm not talking about predestination or suppression of free will.
Only those who choose to accept YHWH as GOD and HIS purpose for their creation ie full, loving , holy communion with GOD in heaven for eternity by their true free will are accepted into HIS church. Period. You don't want in, you don't get in.
Some of those who accepted HIM later chose to rebel against HIM and earth is for them to learn to reject their idolatry and turn back to HIM in holiness and fulfill their first choice in righteousness.
Others rejected HIM so fully they can never be brought back to anything but that rejection therefore they are forever outside of HIS grace, forever unable to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation and fit only to be discarded in gehenna.
That is why we live like we do and why there is no magical short cut to heaven...you must be righteous to get in.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]
Obviously you misunderstood my question. What I'm referring to is, what purpose does God have in having people live life. He already knows before he creates each person whether they will ultimately accept him or reject him. So for example some people that have suffered truly painful lives shouldn't have had to go through the actual experience since God already knew before he created them the decision they would make before the day they died, thus making it unnecessary for God to have them actually experience all that pain and suffering. If you somehow were able to see the future and you saw that something bad is going to happen to you in a few years and a person you love such as a parent or spouse is going to suffer and give his/her life to save you, wouldn't you prevent the situation and spare them that suffering if you could avoid it? Well, God can see into the future, knows beforehand who will follow him and who won't, can skip all the part about suffering of life on earth but chooses to allow it to happen anyway for no reason, rather than sending them directly to heaven. And even worse, he still creates the ones that he already knows are going to end up in hell, tortured for eternity, rather than simply not creating them at all. Now tell me that is not considered sadism.
Obviously you misunderstood my question. What I'm referring to is, what purpose does God have in having people live life. He already knows before he creates each person whether they will ultimately accept him or reject him. So for example some people that have suffered truly painful lives shouldn't have had to go through the actual experience since God already knew before he created them the decision they would make before the day they died, thus making it unnecessary for God to have them actually experience all that pain and suffering. If you somehow were able to see the future and you saw that something bad is going to happen to you in a few years and a person you love such as a parent or spouse is going to suffer and give his/her life to save you, wouldn't you prevent the situation and spare them that suffering if you could avoid it? Well, God can see into the future, knows beforehand who will follow him and who won't, can skip all the part about suffering of life on earth but chooses to allow it to happen anyway for no reason, rather than sending them directly to heaven. And even worse, he still creates the ones that he already knows are going to end up in hell, tortured for eternity, rather than simply not creating them at all. Now tell me that is not considered sadism.
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ttruscott
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Re: What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?
Post #4My answer is in this sentence: Some of those who accepted HIM later chose to rebel against HIM and earth is for them to learn to reject their idolatry and turn back to HIM in holiness and fulfill their first choice in righteousness.lostguest wrote: [Replying to post 2 by ttruscott]
Obviously you misunderstood my question. What I'm referring to is, what purpose does God have in having people live life.
I could have written: earthly life is for them to learn to reject evil and become holy.
Our creation in sheol did not grant us entry into heaven as we had not chosen to accept HIM as GOD and then reject evil.
He already knows before he creates each person whether they will ultimately accept him or reject him.
My theology rejects this notion as completely against HIS revealed attributes of love for HIS creation and HIS hatred of evil and displeasure in death.
All HE had to do to avoid the creation of evil and the death of those who created it would have been to NOT CREATE the ones HE knew would sin and be damned. Since HE did create the reprobate, it is proof HE must not have known who would accept HIM or reject HIM before HE created them.
All people born on earth are people who chose before their birth to be evil and if they won't repent for the love of Christ, only pain and suffering is left. All pain has a good purpose for HIS elect. Becoming human is proof of prior sinful choices.So for example some people that have suffered truly painful lives shouldn't have had to go through the actual experience since God already knew before he created them the decision they would make before the day they died, thus making it unnecessary for God to have them actually experience all that pain and suffering.
If you somehow were able to see the future and you saw that something bad is going to happen to you in a few years and a person you love such as a parent or spouse is going to suffer and give his/her life to save you, wouldn't you prevent the situation and spare them that suffering if you could avoid it?
I reject that HE knew who would choose to accept HIM or reject HIM BEFORE they made their true free will decision to accept or reject. Not understanding this is the essence of the problems you are asking about...
Those who accepted HIM and became HIS elect then rebelled against HIM becoming enslaved to sin live predestined lives here on earth to break their addiction to sin by having them live in sin and the suffering it causes until they reject it.
So GOD's only purpose for LIFE is to separate HIS sinful elect, the wheat, from their sins and teach them to choose to be holy.
Details of what I claimed about GOD and how orthodoxy got it wrong are available, if you care.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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How omniscience of all things ≠all things
Post #5I'll provide the details anyway - someone might be interested.
The case for how Omniscient Knowledge of all things ≠all things.
GOD knows with a full and complet knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and wirh complete knowledge.
GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did not decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly but only as possibilities.
When the time came for us to make our true free will decisions, He did not decree the outcomes of our true free will choices but with HIS omniscient knowledge of all the possible choices, HE waited to see who would choose what. Therefore HE did not create the destiny (predestinate) of anyone, before their decision.
By these uncoerced true free will decisions we self separated ourselves into three main groups: the elect, split between the holy elect and the sinful elect by their own choices, and the non-elect. The sinful elect, the wheat, were sent to earth to learn about sin from their own decsision here and from living with the non-elect, the tares.
But the lives we live here on earth are predestinated enough to achieve GOD's good end for HIS sinful elect as per HIS promise of election to redeem us and to make us holy and though we practice making choices between good and evil, they are not the true free will choices we used to have since our wills here on earth are either enslaved to sin or to righteousness.
All references to GOD's sovereign predestination of our lives refer to our lives here on earth. All references to our choosing (by free will) here on earth are a reflection of the need for free will and a reminder to HIS sinful elect to practice choosing good and becoming holy within HIS plan to end this world.
Peace, Ted
The case for how Omniscient Knowledge of all things ≠all things.
GOD knows with a full and complet knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and wirh complete knowledge.
GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did not decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly but only as possibilities.
When the time came for us to make our true free will decisions, He did not decree the outcomes of our true free will choices but with HIS omniscient knowledge of all the possible choices, HE waited to see who would choose what. Therefore HE did not create the destiny (predestinate) of anyone, before their decision.
By these uncoerced true free will decisions we self separated ourselves into three main groups: the elect, split between the holy elect and the sinful elect by their own choices, and the non-elect. The sinful elect, the wheat, were sent to earth to learn about sin from their own decsision here and from living with the non-elect, the tares.
But the lives we live here on earth are predestinated enough to achieve GOD's good end for HIS sinful elect as per HIS promise of election to redeem us and to make us holy and though we practice making choices between good and evil, they are not the true free will choices we used to have since our wills here on earth are either enslaved to sin or to righteousness.
All references to GOD's sovereign predestination of our lives refer to our lives here on earth. All references to our choosing (by free will) here on earth are a reflection of the need for free will and a reminder to HIS sinful elect to practice choosing good and becoming holy within HIS plan to end this world.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: How omniscience of all things ≠all things
Post #6Simple question.ttruscott wrote: I'll provide the details anyway - someone might be interested.
The case for how Omniscient Knowledge of all things ≠all things.
GOD knows with a full and complet knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and wirh complete knowledge.
GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did not decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly but only as possibilities.
When the time came for us to make our true free will decisions, He did not decree the outcomes of our true free will choices but with HIS omniscient knowledge of all the possible choices, HE waited to see who would choose what. Therefore HE did not create the destiny (predestinate) of anyone, before their decision.
By these uncoerced true free will decisions we self separated ourselves into three main groups: the elect, split between the holy elect and the sinful elect by their own choices, and the non-elect. The sinful elect, the wheat, were sent to earth to learn about sin from their own decsision here and from living with the non-elect, the tares.
But the lives we live here on earth are predestinated enough to achieve GOD's good end for HIS sinful elect as per HIS promise of election to redeem us and to make us holy and though we practice making choices between good and evil, they are not the true free will choices we used to have since our wills here on earth are either enslaved to sin or to righteousness.
All references to GOD's sovereign predestination of our lives refer to our lives here on earth. All references to our choosing (by free will) here on earth are a reflection of the need for free will and a reminder to HIS sinful elect to practice choosing good and becoming holy within HIS plan to end this world.
Peace, Ted
An omniscient being knows what he's going to eat next saturday.
the question: can that being choose to eat anything else?
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ttruscott
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Post #7
Gee - I don't know. Guess you should ask HIM...?
Peace, Ted
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #8
[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]
Based on your explanation it still seems to me that God has the power to know the future but chooses not to. For example if I wanted to know who won a baseball game I recorded from beginning to end last week but instead of just fast forwarding to the end I choose to watch the entire game, does that change in any way what actually happened during the game? Of course not. God has the power to know exactly what actions each person will take before they even think about it otherwise we could not consider him omnipotent and omniscient. The fact that according to your point of view he chooses not to, doesn't excuse the fact that he had the power to skip to the end but thought it'd be more "entertaining" to watch it happen. Maybe your version of God is not as powerful as the ones most other Christians I know worship.
One more point, if you believe that knowing the future implies a violation of the free will, how do justify the countless prophecies throughout the bible. For instance, was Jesus suppressing Judas' free will when he foretold he would betray him? Or Peter's when he told him he would deny him?
Based on your explanation it still seems to me that God has the power to know the future but chooses not to. For example if I wanted to know who won a baseball game I recorded from beginning to end last week but instead of just fast forwarding to the end I choose to watch the entire game, does that change in any way what actually happened during the game? Of course not. God has the power to know exactly what actions each person will take before they even think about it otherwise we could not consider him omnipotent and omniscient. The fact that according to your point of view he chooses not to, doesn't excuse the fact that he had the power to skip to the end but thought it'd be more "entertaining" to watch it happen. Maybe your version of God is not as powerful as the ones most other Christians I know worship.
One more point, if you believe that knowing the future implies a violation of the free will, how do justify the countless prophecies throughout the bible. For instance, was Jesus suppressing Judas' free will when he foretold he would betray him? Or Peter's when he told him he would deny him?
Post #9
[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]
Strangely enough I'm getting no response from trying this...
So why don't I ask people who seem convinced that he exists and what he wants, feels and what his powers are ?
And if you can't speak for your god, why speak about him at all ?
Strangely enough I'm getting no response from trying this...
So why don't I ask people who seem convinced that he exists and what he wants, feels and what his powers are ?
And if you can't speak for your god, why speak about him at all ?
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ReligionSlayer
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Re: How omniscience of all things ≠all things
Post #10ttruscott wrote: I'll provide the details anyway - someone might be interested.
The case for how Omniscient Knowledge of all things ≠all things.
GOD knows with a full and complet knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and wirh complete knowledge.
GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did not decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly but only as possibilities.
When the time came for us to make our true free will decisions, He did not decree the outcomes of our true free will choices but with HIS omniscient knowledge of all the possible choices, HE waited to see who would choose what. Therefore HE did not create the destiny (predestinate) of anyone, before their decision.
By these uncoerced true free will decisions we self separated ourselves into three main groups: the elect, split between the holy elect and the sinful elect by their own choices, and the non-elect. The sinful elect, the wheat, were sent to earth to learn about sin from their own decsision here and from living with the non-elect, the tares.
But the lives we live here on earth are predestinated enough to achieve GOD's good end for HIS sinful elect as per HIS promise of election to redeem us and to make us holy and though we practice making choices between good and evil, they are not the true free will choices we used to have since our wills here on earth are either enslaved to sin or to righteousness.
All references to GOD's sovereign predestination of our lives refer to our lives here on earth. All references to our choosing (by free will) here on earth are a reflection of the need for free will and a reminder to HIS sinful elect to practice choosing good and becoming holy within HIS plan to end this world.
Peace, Ted
Free will contradicts all-knowing attribute of god.
Thank you for playing.
