Which is the bigger sin?

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Elijah John
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Which is the bigger sin?

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Which is worse, murder and other such atrocities we see and hear in the headlines all too often, or not believing in Jesus as the "only begotten Son of God" as John 3:18 seems to suggest.

That verse and others like it seem to suggest that not believing in Jesus as the "only begotten Son of God" is the worst sin in the world. Am I misreading this?

What if a person believes in God, and embraces His commandments in their heart and strives to live by them, but does not believe that Jesus is Divine?

Then what if an unspeakable murderer is "born again" in prison, does that person go straight to Heaven when he or she dies, and the Godly non-Christian does not?

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bluethread
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Post #2

Post by bluethread »

You are conflating two separate concepts. It appears that the inference is that we are look at things in a criminal matter, yet the OP asks for a conclusion on a matter of eternal judgment. To the empiricist, the death penalty is equivalent to an eternal judgment, because there is nothing after death. However, to the supernaturalist, the two are quite different.

Criminal matters relate to maintaining proper order in human society. In this context, murder is worse than unbelief, because murder poses an imminent danger to human society, while disbelief is only a potential danger. Since, these judgments are enforced by humans, one's internal motivations and one's ability to control them can only be judged by one's actions.

Eternal judgment relates to ones fitness for the afterlife. In this context, one's propensities are more important. These are judged by one who can discern those propensities. Therefore, one's willingness to accept the authority of a deity is more akin to rebellion or insurrection. This whole issue of judging rebellion or insurrection based on professed knowledge of one's motivations and future possibilities, rather than past actions is the subject of much speculation in science fiction, ie Minority Report and The Terminator. The question is, if one knew without a doubt that someone was going to take part in violent rebellion or insurrection, would it be acceptable to remove that person from society?

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ttruscott
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Re: Which is the bigger sin?

Post #3

Post by ttruscott »

Elijah John wrote: Which is worse, murder and other such atrocities we see and hear in the headlines all too often, or not believing in Jesus as the "only begotten Son of God" as John 3:18 seems to suggest.

...
In the abstract there are no worse sins. ALL sin has an absolute ultimate disvalue before GOD. As well, ALL sin causes unbelief in GOD in that only sinners are born human and no sinner is born believing in GOD.

The sin of unbelief is different from human acts of sin in that IF it was chosen as a rejection of GOD and HIS promises of salvation then the person will have no recourse...he cannot save himself from his own addiction to sin and he has chosen to put himself outside of GOD's salvation. BUT IF he accepted GOD and HIS promises of salvation then chose to do an act of sin and thereby became an unbeliever, he is still under GOD's promises of salvation which will be fulfilled in him.

[May I remind folks that I believe the only time this choice was available was pre-earth in sheol and this mention of (free will) choices has no meaning in earthly society.]

Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

Thoughtful response as usual bluethread, but I think we disagree.

I think murder is the worse sin in either the human or spiritual realm, because murderer is taking for himself the power of life and death, which should be the province of God alone. The killer is also destroying an individual temple of JHVH's Holy Spirit, to borrow Paul's metaphor.

Also, rejecting John's claim about Jesus is only rejecting John, not God. At worse, it is rejecting Jesus of Nazareth. So even in the spiritual realm, this is not rebellion against God, unless it can be proven that God gave His own complete authority to Jesus, an assertion that Muslims, Jews, Deists, agnostics, and Unitarians would dispute. Or it can be proven that the real Jesus actually claimed Divine authority for himself, and not the evangilists John, or Paul or whomever, attributing this claim to Jesus.

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@ Truscott, to equate ALL sin as being equally rebellious towards God fails to make moral distinctions, don't you think?

A human "hanging" judge who gave the death penalty for every infraction, including traffic violations would be considered unfit for the bench, or worse, a despot or a tyrant.

A good judge would give a punishment proportional to the offence, like a ticket or a warning, would he not?

How much more just would an Almighty, Benevolent Deity be? I'm betting he would have an extremely highly developed (compared to us humans) sense of justice, able to make fine distinctions, and to temper justice with mercy in perfect balance in all His judgements.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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bluethread
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Post #5

Post by bluethread »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 2 by bluethread]

Thoughtful response as usual bluethread, but I think we disagree.

I think murder is the worse sin in either the human or spiritual realm, because murderer is taking for himself the power of life and death, which should be the province of God alone. The killer is also destroying an individual temple of JHVH's Holy Spirit, to borrow Paul's metaphor.
Thank you and you are free to disagree. However, your conclusion is based on conjecture. Taking a human life is not forbidden. Unlawful taking of a life is forbidden. The context of Paul's "temple" statement is regarding one of Adonai's people engaging in prostitution, ie joining oneself with a prostitute. Yes, we should respect life, but that passage does not mean that murder is worse than rejecting Adonai when it comes to the final judgment.
Also, rejecting John's claim about Jesus is only rejecting John, not God. At worse, it is rejecting Jesus of Nazareth. So even in the spiritual realm, this is not rebellion against God, unless it can be proven that God gave His own complete authority to Jesus, an assertion that Muslims, Jews, Deists, agnostics, and Unitarians would dispute. Or it can be proven that the real Jesus actually claimed Divine authority for himself, and not the evangilists John, or Paul or whomever, attributing this claim to Jesus.
Well, that is a question about the veracity of Yochannan's account, not the nature of the statement. More to the point, it doesn't matter who disputes Yeshua's authority. It is the validity of those disputations that counts.

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Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

"Murder" is unlawful. And I believe you are correct in citing the context of Paul's metaphor, as it applies to prostitution, it has wider application as well. If prostitution defiles a human body temple, murder even more so, both for the one who is murdered, and the murderer.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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rejecting Jesus

Post #7

Post by Overcomer »

The Bible says there is only one unforgivable sin. That's rejecting the Holy Spirit's call to accept Christ as Saviour as stated in Matthew 12:31 which reads "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven" (ESV). The sin of unbelief is blasphemy against the Spirit.

Jesus offers forgiveness of all our sins. However, if we reject him, then we reject his forgiveness and remain unforgiven. To remain unforgiven is to remain separated from God for eternity. That's why it is the worst sin. The sin of murder can be forgiven, but the sin of refusing Christ as Lord and Saviour cannot be.

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bluethread
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Post #8

Post by bluethread »

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

"Murder" is unlawful. And I believe you are correct in citing the context of Paul's metaphor, as it applies to prostitution, it has wider application as well. If prostitution defiles a human body temple, murder even more so, both for the one who is murdered, and the murderer.
Yes, what makes murder unlawful? The law, not rationalization. Therefore, the law, not rationalization, establishes the severity of that legality. You may choose to widen the concept, but the point Paul is making is that fornication is a greater sin, because it is not just a sin against another, but a sin against ones own body. The point about the body being the Temple for the Ruach is a spiritual argument. He had just made the point that meat is not bad in and of itself. It is not about health at all, but about submitting oneself to Adonai, which includes one's body. In sex, one is to submit oneself to the other. If the other is not approved of Adonai, one is not submitting oneself to Adonai. Murder is not a matter of submission and acceptance, but domination and rejection. If one were to join a terrorist organization, the verse might apply. However, murder is a sin against another and not oneself. Therefore, if anything is a lesser sin, it would be murder, based on this passage.

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Re: rejecting Jesus

Post #9

Post by McCulloch »

Overcomer wrote: The Bible says there is only one unforgivable sin. That's rejecting the Holy Spirit's call to accept Christ as Saviour as stated in Matthew 12:31 which reads "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven" (ESV). The sin of unbelief is blasphemy against the Spirit.

Jesus offers forgiveness of all our sins. However, if we reject him, then we reject his forgiveness and remain unforgiven. To remain unforgiven is to remain separated from God for eternity. That's why it is the worst sin. The sin of murder can be forgiven, but the sin of refusing Christ as Lord and Saviour cannot be.
Exactly! This is the essence of many of our objection to Christian theology. You purport to believe in the God who has established the greatest moral code ever, yet this same God values the belief in a particular religious doctrine over the actions that we make in our lives. Why would it be more important to God that I believe that Christ is the savior than whether I act in a way consistent with truly caring for other humans?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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bluethread
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Re: rejecting Jesus

Post #10

Post by bluethread »

McCulloch wrote:
Overcomer wrote: The Bible says there is only one unforgivable sin. That's rejecting the Holy Spirit's call to accept Christ as Saviour as stated in Matthew 12:31 which reads "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven" (ESV). The sin of unbelief is blasphemy against the Spirit.

Jesus offers forgiveness of all our sins. However, if we reject him, then we reject his forgiveness and remain unforgiven. To remain unforgiven is to remain separated from God for eternity. That's why it is the worst sin. The sin of murder can be forgiven, but the sin of refusing Christ as Lord and Saviour cannot be.
Exactly! This is the essence of many of our objection to Christian theology. You purport to believe in the God who has established the greatest moral code ever, yet this same God values the belief in a particular religious doctrine over the actions that we make in our lives. Why would it be more important to God that I believe that Christ is the savior than whether I act in a way consistent with truly caring for other humans?
I understand your argument against the J-E-S-U-S crowd. However, those who do not believe on the name of Yeshua(Adonai saves) do not acknowledge what is truly caring for other humans, according to the Scriptures. As many atheists have pointed out, things like "truly caring" are relative things, if there is no standard. I do not know how one can expect that Adonai would not require His people to live according to his standard.

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