Abortion is not illegal. God oversees gov't.

[corky]

Romans 13 say's we are supposed to obey our government. Since abortion is not illegal, why do Christians have a problem with it?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by mitty]

Thank you for your list of scriptures. Unfortunately, none of them actually address the question asked.

The commandment in Numbers 5:20-30 clearly describes how all pregnancies from adultery must be aborted by the use of abortifacients ("bitter water") such as pomegranate seeds or siliphium.

Where does the bible narrative mention pomegranate seeds or siliphium ? Chapter and verse please.

JW

If you are really interested in making a "bitter water" abortifacient I suggest you ask the authors of that commandment how to make it, or ask your local rabbi since the meaning and purpose of that commandment is obvious.

Not necessary because the bible narrative is fairly explicit in what this "bitter water" contained, ie clean water, dust from the temple floor and possibly a little ink. (Num 5:17, 24). I asked, not because I myself am interested in making it but because you claimed it contained elements not mentioned in the bible narrative. A reasonable request I believe.


JW

[mitty]

[Replying to post 29 by mitty]

Thank you for your list of scriptures. Unfortunately, none of them actually address the question asked.

The commandment in Numbers 5:20-30 clearly describes how all pregnancies from adultery must be aborted by the use of abortifacients ("bitter water") such as pomegranate seeds or siliphium.

Where does the bible narrative mention pomegranate seeds or siliphium ? Chapter and verse please.

JW

If you are really interested in making a "bitter water" abortifacient I suggest you ask the authors of that commandment how to make it, or ask your local rabbi since the meaning and purpose of that commandment is obvious.

Not necessary because the bible narrative is fairly explicit in what this "bitter water" contained, ie clean water, dust from the temple floor and possibly a little ink. (Num 5:17, 24). I asked, not because I myself am interested in making it but because you claimed it contained elements not mentioned in the bible narrative. A reasonable request I believe.


JW

Whatever they made their abortifacient ("bitter water") from is irrelevant although pomegranate seeds & siliphium etc have been used throughout history in that area and probably taste bitter. It's the reason they used it which is relevant, and was not about making magic brews and casting magic spells, but was about protecting the property rights of men since only adulteresses were required to drink "bitter water" not male adulterers.

And for those who believe that commandment was about magic brews & magic spells what would be the fate of a pregnancy after drinking "bitter water", or do they believe that adulteresses never become pregnant?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 31 by mitty]

That may well be the case but you have made an assumption about what you believe "bitter water" is and have done so without basis in the text to which you directly referred . All this despite the fact that the text itself explicity states the content of said water. Since there is a contradiction between what you assume and what the text explictly says (especially, as a contextual analysis does not lend itself to the interpretation that the subject was necessarily), it seems reasonable to reject your particular interpretation.

JW

[mitty]

[Replying to post 31 by mitty]

That may well be the case but you have made an assumption about what you believe "bitter water" is and have done so without basis in the text to which you directly referred . All this despite the fact that the text itself explicity states the content of said water. Since there is a contradiction between what you assume and what the text explictly says (especially, as a contextual analysis does not lend itself to the interpretation that the subject was necessarily), it seems reasonable to reject your particular interpretation.

JW

So what was the fate of a pregnancy if a pregnant woman drank "bitter water" and said "so be it, so be it" given that the bible does not condemn abortion?

[JehovahsWitness]

So what was the fate of a pregnancy if a pregnant woman drank "bitter water" and said "so be it, so be it" [...]?

Well that depends on if we have established what is in the water. Are we agreed that the text does NOT mention any abortive poisonous concuccsions and that indeed the woman would be drinking nothing that would physically harm her or her unborn child if she were pregnant?

If so, then she would probably just go home and have her baby and if her baby looked nothing like her husband, he and everyone in the community would know she was indeed an adulteress.

[mitty]

So what was the fate of a pregnancy if a pregnant woman drank "bitter water" and said "so be it, so be it" [...]?

Well that depends on if we have established what is in the water. Are we agreed that the text does NOT mention any abortive poisonous concuccsions and that indeed the woman would be drinking nothing that would physically harm her or her unborn child if she were pregnant?

If so, then she would probably just go home and have her baby and if her baby looked nothing like her husband, he and everyone in the community would know she was indeed an adulteress.

Nope, you certainly have not established that "bitter water" is not an abortifacient. If an adulteress was just drinking water with a bitter lemon flavor or gin and bitters then nothing would happen and particularly if she enjoyed drinking those types of drinks. And consequently there would be absolutely no point in that commandment if adulteresses' bellies therefore didn't swell and their thighs didn't rot (ie miscarry). I guess it's all about cherry picking those bits in the bible which have appeal and ignoring those bits that don't. But either way there is nothing in the bible that condemns abortion. And without reliable DNA paternity tests then while maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is just a matter of opinion (Luke 3:23).

But clearly that's not the reason for that commandment which is to ensure that inheritance lines are legitimate, and is similar to the reason why a new pride lion will kill all the cubs of the previous pride lion, and nothing you say will convince me otherwise.

Have a nice day.

[puddleglum]

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Romans 13:3-4 ESV)

Governments exist for the purpose of punishing wrongdoers. As long as they carry out this purpose Christians must support them. When governments become wrongdoers by allowing abortion or other sinful activities Christians must put God's commands before the law.

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
(Acts 5:29 ESV)

We must still obey all laws that aren't contrary to God's laws.

[Hamsaka]

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Romans 13:3-4 ESV)

Governments exist for the purpose of punishing wrongdoers. As long as they carry out this purpose Christians must support them. When governments become wrongdoers by allowing abortion or other sinful activities Christians must put God's commands before the law.

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
(Acts 5:29 ESV)

We must still obey all laws that aren't contrary to God's laws.

I wonder why Christians do not lobby as hard for stricter 'marriage' laws to prevent adulterers from having legal marriages. Adultery is one of the most condemned of sins.

Yet 'obeying God rather than men' has (of late) only included lobbying against legal abortion and same-sex marriage -- neither of which are explicitly condemned, like adultery is.

Rather than switch the focus to SSM (not my intention), I'm wondering why the Christians who lobby lawmakers to legislate against abortion and SSM refuse to be consistent in addressing adultery with lawmakers, which is a far more explicit 'sin' than abortion or even marriage between same-sex pairs.

The obvious implication is that Christians don't want to follow God's commandments about adultery. They want to play fast and loose with adultery because some huge percentage of them would be in adulterous relationships NOW.

Don't Christians realize we can SEE this?? It totally makes a mockery of their protests against abortion (not condemned in the Bible anywhere). And it makes their pogroms against same-sex marriage look hypocritical and strained.

Both of these cause Christians to appear dishonest and self-serving, rather than proponents of genuine morality.

[bluethread]

The commandment in Numbers 5:20-30 clearly describes how all pregnancies from adultery must be aborted

Well, no ... it does not, it doesn't even mention the word "pregnancy" or "with child" or give any indication at all that the woman is pregnant prior to the event. If it were "clear" such explicit expressions would be there. In the absence of this on can at most propose an possible interpretation.

The commandment in Numbers 5:20-30 clearly describes how all pregnancies from adultery must be aborted by the use of abortifacients ("bitter water") such as pomegranate seeds or siliphium.

Where does the bible narrative mention pomegranate seeds or siliphium ? Chapter and verse please.

JW

Though I do not agree with mitty's conclusion. I can see where this might be a plausible theory. The tzitzit(fringes) of the garments of Cohen HaGogal(the high priest) have alternating pomegranates and bells. So, pomegranate seeds could possibly be found in the dust of the Temple. However, it is to be noted that there is a certain amount of doubt with regard to it's effectiveness. Num. 5:18 "And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:" So, unless one is implying systematic corruption on the part of the priesthood, there is an element of providence involved in the process.

That said, this is a circumstantial argument and the requirement that the jealous husband provide for the woman for the rest of his life, regardless of her future actions, should the woman pass the test, would indicate that this procedure was a rarity. I think that the purpose of this is to discourage both adultery and jealousy. In relation to the point being made, I do not see this as a justification for abortion on demand in any way shape or form.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 38 by bluethread]

I would certainly agree with your conclusions. Moreover the Mosaic law strictly prohibited the use of poisonous concuccsions (see Deut 29:18) presumably because of their links with witchcrraft. While it is conceivable that minute traces of pomagranate seeds might have been found on the temple floor, pomegranates were not a regular feature in temple sacrifice and there certainly could not have been enough to induce an abortion.