Abortion is not illegal. God oversees gov't.

[corky]

Romans 13 say's we are supposed to obey our government. Since abortion is not illegal, why do Christians have a problem with it?

[mitty]

[Replying to post 38 by bluethread]

I would certainly agree with your conclusions. Moreover the Mosaic law strictly prohibited the use of poisonous concuccsions (see Deut 29:18) presumably because of their links with witchcrraft. While it is conceivable that minute traces of pomagranate seeds might have been found on the temple floor, pomegranates were not a regular feature in temple sacrifice and there certainly could not have been enough to induce an abortion.

If adulteresses' bellies didn't swell and their thighs didn't rot (ie wombs miscarry) after drinking "bitter water" as you imply, then what is the relevance of those verses? Afterall the bible doesn't condemn abortion, and male adulterers weren't required to drink a medication of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it".

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 40 by mitty]


I believe I have already addressed this point. Link below.


[Post #26 by JehovahsWitness]

[mitty]

[Replying to post 38 by bluethread]

I would certainly agree with your conclusions. Moreover the Mosaic law strictly prohibited the use of poisonous concuccsions (see Deut 29:18) presumably because of their links with witchcrraft. While it is conceivable that minute traces of pomagranate seeds might have been found on the temple floor, pomegranates were not a regular feature in temple sacrifice and there certainly could not have been enough to induce an abortion.

If adulteresses' bellies didn't swell and their thighs didn't rot (ie wombs miscarry) after drinking "bitter water" as implied from your straw-grasping argument, then what is the relevance of those verses? Afterall the bible doesn't condemn abortion, and male adulterers weren't required to drink a medication of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it". Or are you suggesting that adulteresses never become pregnant and/or that only non-pregnant adulteresses were required to drink "bitter water", and that only the bellies (wombs) of non-pregnant women swelled and their thighs rotted (wombs miscarried).

[mitty]

[Replying to post 40 by mitty]


I believe I have already addressed this point. Link below.


[Post #26 by JehovahsWitness]

And that argument wouldn't even convince my cat since you've avoided describing the fate of pregnancies of women after drinking a medication of "bitter water" and why adulteresses were required to drink a medication of "bitter water" and not male adulterers. Afterall, other OTcommandments required that both adulterers & adulteresses must be executed, not just adulteresses.

[mitty]

[Replying to post 1 by corky] The bible commands that all pregnancies from adultery must be aborted (Numbers 5:20-28 )

QUESTION: Does the bible command that all pregnancies from adultery be aborted (Numbers 5:20-28)?

ANSWER: No. Numbers 5 reads as following:

"When he [The Priest] makes her drink the water, if she has defiled herself and committed an act of unfaithfulness toward her husband, the water that brings a curse will then enter into her and become something bitter, and her abdomen will swell, and her thigh will fall away, and the woman will become an object of cursing among her people" - Num 5: 27

Firstly it should be noted that the said "swelling" and "falling away" is not presented as a result of any sexual encounter but as a RESULT of the drinking of the prepared "holy water". So the above procedure is not that of a woman already showing signs of pregnancy.

QUESTION: What then is the meaning of the "falling away" of her "thigh"?

In the bible the "thigh" is often used as a euphemism for the reproductive organs. For example, refering to Jacobs children Genesis 46:26 speaks of those "which came out of his loins" (ERV) literally his "thigh" ("issue out of the upper thigh" AKJV - compare Ex 1:5; Jg 8:30). So evidently, this "curse" refers NOT to the abortion of an unborn child conceived in adultery but to the "waste away" (CB), “shrink� (Da) or “shrivel� (Mo) of an adulteresses reproductive organs perhaps suggesting loss of fertility.

That the adulteress is not being cursed with an forced abortion is evident by how the effects are contrasted for an innocent woman falsely accursed, we read "However, if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free from such punishment, and she will be able to conceive and produce offspring." (Num 5:28)

So what is the difference in the physiological/biochemical process in adulteresses and non-adulteresses after they drink medications of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it"?
Why do the bellies of pregnant adulteresses swell and their thighs "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water" whereas the bellies of pregnant non-adulteresses don't swell and their thighs don't "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water"?

[bluethread]

So what is the difference in the physiological/biochemical process in adulteresses and non-adulteresses after they drink medications of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it"?
Why do the bellies of pregnant adulteresses swell and their thighs "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water" whereas the bellies of pregnant non-adulteresses don't swell and their thighs don't "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water"?

Are you actually requiring a definitive scientific explanation of a rare practice that has not occurred for over 1900 years? I thought the criticism of hyper-literal readings of the KJV were extreme. I guess I didn't know how far people would go to justify the taking of a life.

[mitty]

So what is the difference in the physiological/biochemical process in adulteresses and non-adulteresses after they drink medications of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it"?
Why do the bellies of pregnant adulteresses swell and their thighs "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water" whereas the bellies of pregnant non-adulteresses don't swell and their thighs don't "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water"?

Are you actually requiring a definitive scientific explanation of a rare practice that has not occurred for over 1900 years? I thought the criticism of hyper-literal readings of the KJV were extreme. I guess I didn't know how far people would go to justify the taking of a life.

It depends whether or not the bible has any relevance today or is just an old book written by men, for men, about a small society, and their history and laws and culture and myths, including the gods they created in their images & likenesses. As for taking life, the biblical writers didn't condemn the crimes against humanity committed by Joshua etal, including the butchering of children and the unborn (Josh 6:21 8:26 10:37 Numbers 21:35).

[bluethread]

So what is the difference in the physiological/biochemical process in adulteresses and non-adulteresses after they drink medications of "bitter water" and say "so be it, so be it"?
Why do the bellies of pregnant adulteresses swell and their thighs "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water" whereas the bellies of pregnant non-adulteresses don't swell and their thighs don't "rot" after drinking the medication of "bitter water"?

Are you actually requiring a definitive scientific explanation of a rare practice that has not occurred for over 1900 years? I thought the criticism of hyper-literal readings of the KJV were extreme. I guess I didn't know how far people would go to justify the taking of a life.

It depends whether or not the bible has any relevance today or is just an old book written by men, for men, about a small society, and their history and laws and culture and myths, including the gods they created in their images & likenesses. As for taking life, the biblical writers didn't condemn the crimes against humanity committed by Joshua etal, including the butchering of children and the unborn (Josh 6:21 8:26 10:37 Numbers 21:35).

So, are you saying that Churchill, FDR and Truman should have been tried for murder because of Dresden & Hiroshima?

[bluedog]

[Replying to post 1 by corky]

1. GOD DOES NOT OVERSEE GOVERNMENTS....if He did, freewill would be non-existent and life is but a waste. The scriptures declare that Governments exist because He allows them to exist...but free will is still alive and well or nations such as the USSR or Hitler's Germany could have never existed. Show us the scripture where God oversees to the point of regulating all things other than the Kingdom of God....that scripture does not exist. God's Law defines sin.....it does not regulate it. Morality cannot be legislated as long as free will exists.

Because something is "legal" does not make it "moral".....laws define a societies morals or lack thereof, laws do not establish morality they are but a reflection of any societies current moral fiber. A Sin is still a sin. Homosexuality is still a sin, just as is murder, stealing, false witness...etc., God's ultimate punishment is no less or no more based upon THE LAWS OF MEN.

2. Simply because abortion is legal does not make it a mandatory regulation for those who morally oppose it based upon the laws of God. Let those who wish to burn in hell "freely" practice their clearly defined sins against humanity and pay the ultimate price as life is not the end of humanity based upon the revelations of God as found in the Holy Scriptures

3. All the scriptures point out is the revelation that all governments exist because God allows them to exist.(Rom. 13:1-2)...by majority they are necessary for the protection and well being of ALL MEN to include the sinner as well as the saint. In the END.....revenge and and final judgment belong to God....not men. (Rom. 12:19)

4. Its true that God demands (not a suggestion) but a demand, that Christians respect their appointed governments and give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar....but, its better to physically die in obeying the righteousness of God's Law than to live in immorality as based upon the laws of man. God will be the final judge as to what is right and what is wrong, its not the place of man to seek vengeance but to personally obey the Laws of God.

FYI: We as Christians, when it comes to right v. wrong, should readily obey the laws of God v. the Laws of Man (Acts 5:29) But when a law makes that which is clearly immoral.....legal (abortion, homosexuality..etc.) and its based upon a man's FREE WILL DECISION then its the ones that act against the laws of God that are in mortal danger....not the righteous who PERSONALLY refuse to accept immorality when given a moral choice....why? Because the scriptures also enlighten us that GOD still stands in the Congregations of the MIGHTY, even in the heads of state...and sees all, and condemns who He will as based upon His revelations to mankind (PS 81:1-4).

Ever hear of Hitler and His government? Are you suggesting that it was not evil, even though it existed because God plays no favorites among men (FREE WILL). There are evil governments as well as righteous governments. God will make the final judgment and seek VENGEANCE when and where HE WILL.

Thus...SIN ALL YOU WANT....LEGALLY....its your soul not mine...we both have been granted the greatest gift known to man....FREE WILL. Each life is free to be its own rudder along life's path. Choose wisely....as for me and my household....I still bend a knee to the Creator

[Yahu]

Romans 13 say's we are supposed to obey our government. Since abortion is not illegal, why do Christians have a problem with it?

Raping or beating to death a slave was not illegal in Roman times. Should a Christan have a problem with that? Local laws in conflict with Yah's laws are not to be obeyed.

This is clearly presented in the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego when they were required by law to bow down to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar. They refused, suffered the consequences by were protected by Yah.