If god doesn't follow his own rules, why should we?

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Princess Luna On The Moon
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If god doesn't follow his own rules, why should we?

Post #1

Post by Princess Luna On The Moon »

*Let's assume the Christian god is real*

This is mostly about the Old Testament where many rules (the 10 Commandments for instance) are listed. If god so rarely follows his own rules and often switches character traits, why should we follow anything he says? Wouldn't his lack of consistency make him rather pathetic as a supreme leader?

Also, why should we follow something even if we find it immoral? Why is harming other humans in the name of god justified? Or, why is god allowed to get away with killing, harming, or ignoring us, yet whenever something good happens, he gets all the credit?
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Post #101

Post by Divine Insight »

twobitsworth wrote: OK, I read here how "DO not kill" only refers to murder.

There is the story of Jepthath in the OT, who offered God a deal wherein he would kill and offer as a burnt offering his daughter if God gave him a military victory.

God agreed and gave him the victory, and Jep did to his daughter as he vowed--murdered her, an innocent girl who was first to the door to welcome her dad home.

If God punished jepthath for the murder, he would be acting in accord with his own Principle, but he does not. In fact, Jepthath is listed in the Hall of Faith.
The Bible is filled with immoral principles like this.

Also, what sense does it make that God would even accept such an offer?

Why would a God who demands that only his will be done help anyone win a battle if it's not God's will that the battle be won in the first place?

The Bible is basically telling a story of a people who believed they could make deals with God to get what they want done.

Ironically this very idea goes totally against what religious people claim as their moral principles. This story has the Bible proclaiming that it's ok to "Bargain" with God.

Make God an extremely stupid offer, and God will help you win a war. :roll:

And that's supposed to be a good moral story?

The Bible proves that it's nothing more than ridiculous superstitious stories told by men in just about every story in it.
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Post #102

Post by twobitsworth »

I am trying to understand if God operates on any principle of Right and Wrong....or if he simply does what is expedient in each case.

Consider the example of Uzza in the OT. He attempted to steady the Ark as it was being transported, and God struck him dead for it. Because touching the Ark was against the rules.

I'm not questioning the moral value of the rules tight now, just asking is there any principle behind them which God uses? Why is Uzza struck dead for breaking an insignificant rule, but jepthath winds up in the Hall of Faith with no punishment whatever for breaking one of the Ten Commandments?

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Post #103

Post by ttruscott »

twobitsworth wrote: OK, I read here how "DO not kill" only refers to murder.

There is the story of Jepthath in the OT, who offered God a deal wherein he would kill and offer as a burnt offering his daughter if God gave him a military victory.

God agreed and gave him the victory, and Jep did to his daughter as he vowed--murdered her, an innocent girl who was first to the door to welcome her dad home.

If God punished jepthath for the murder, he would be acting in accord with his own Principle, but he does not. In fact, Jepthath is listed in the Hall of Faith.
1. Is the President guilty of the crimes of the soldiers at Mai Lai and other more modern places? Is GOD responsible for the foolishness of HIS soldiers or the great evil of keeping a vow against HIS instructions not to sacrifice people to HIM?

2. If you think that all the redeemed faithful elect start on earth as holy and righteous, you are making a mistake. All are sinners and the sins of the sinful select are as great as the sins of the demons. It is their sin that proves to them their willingness to hurt and cause suffering that brings them to repentance and then to righteousness.

Christ did not come to save the righteous but the guilty. To have faith in GOD is not yet to be righteous as this passage teaches. Iow, a faithful man, accepting YHWH as HIS GOD and Christ as HIS saviour can still make evil decisions until, by painful discipline, they are trained in righteousness: Heb 12:5-11.

And GOD did punish Jephthah...he died and his mental sufferings are not mentioned. All the righteous faithful have sins in their past.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #104

Post by ttruscott »

twobitsworth wrote: Why is Uzza struck dead for breaking an insignificant rule, but jepthath winds up in the Hall of Faith with no punishment whatever for breaking one of the Ten Commandments?
1. The fate of a sinner is NOT dependant upon his sin because all sin is of an equal and ultimate disvalue before GOD but is dependant upon his relationship with YHWH, whether as under HIS promise of salvation by faith or as HIS eternal enemy.

2. Death is the wages of sin so, since all die, the time of death is meaningless to decide anything about GOD's attitude to the person's election or reprobation. You think Uzza's sin was insignificant but any and all sin is judged by death. The only difference between Uzza and Jephthah is how long they had to live with their guilt.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: If god doesn't follow his own rules, why should we?

Post #105

Post by Kevin Cross »

[Replying to post 98 by paarsurrey1]
Paul was not a companion of Jesus, he was not a Jesus\' disciple, he spent no time in Jesus\' company. Did he, please?
I am always impressed when people of a certain faith try to interpret the book of another faith and tell those people of the other what their book really means. If I tried to interpret the Koran, people of the Muslim tradition would probably have a problem with what I said. I am not Muslim and I should not try to interpret the Koran for Muslims. It is like a brain surgeon trying to do foot surgery - it just does not work. But I digress.

Paul was not the “creator� of Jesus as you would like to have people believe. He came after the crucifixion in his book Acts. And the Bible says:
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?�

While this is the beginning of Paul’s account which you probably criticize, it is interesting that a man who hated the followers of Jesus would obey what Jesus said. The argument that Paul “creates� Jesus is not supported by the Bible itself. It is the other way around: Jesus creates Paul. And therefore, you have the whole thing backwards and this is no more than a logical fallacy in order to discredit the Bible and the Christian faith.

5 “Who are you, Lord?� Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,� he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do� (Acts 9:1-6).
There are 4 books before Acts making up the Gospels that document the life of Jesus. Watch this carefully. Notice that this was written by Matthew, not Paul because Paul was not on the scene yet until the book of Acts. So your right -- Paul never knew Christ during His ministry, but that's not the point for the Christian. And the Bible says:
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him (Mat. 10:2-4).
As for 1 Corinthians chapter 15, Paul is never self-contradictory. What he is saying is if Jesus did not die and if He was not resurrected than Christians are wasting their time. At that time, the church and Corinth needed encouragement to believe again. Paul told everyone what he believed. I want to share with readers some passages from 1 Corinthians 15 that you say carries the “smoking gun“ that somehow Paul is lying. And the Bible says:

Paul goes on to remind the Corinthians that Jesus was raised from the dead and what it means. He also told them what it meant if He did not do this. And the Bible says:
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.�c Now when it says that “everything� has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.�c Now when it says that “everything� has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.�[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.�[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.�h

55“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?�i

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain (1 Corinthians 15:20-58)
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed (1 Corinthians 15:3-11).



Now, I defy anyone to tell me that Paul is making the whole story up of the resurrection. Remember, the standard should NOT be whether one “personally� believes Paul. The standard ought to be can someone make an argument, using Paul’s words in these passages that Paul is being untruthful. The other part of the standard is to prove or indicate with reasonable certainty that Paul knew “inside his head� that the resurrection did not occur, but decided to tell the Corinthians something totally different, using the passages found here because this is what was identified as the chapter that proves Paul is lying. I challenge paarsurry1 to make such an argument under these conditions. If this is done, debate can continue. If not, I will withdraw having made my points and debate will end.

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Post #106

Post by twobitsworth »

God did not accept the efforts of Uzza to protect the Ark. and struck him dead for breaking a rule.

God did accept Jepthath's vow, and both parties lived up to the agreement. Therefore, is it morally right or morally wrong to murder an innocent person for some form of gain?

And a slightly different question : is human sacrifice morally right or wrong?

Lets use the bible to decide the matter. I already know very well that the secular world demands the severest sentence for both types of killing. ( and would punish both parties to a murder pact as well), but what is God's Principle on the matter?

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Post #107

Post by bluethread »

twobitsworth wrote: God did not accept the efforts of Uzza to protect the Ark. and struck him dead for breaking a rule.
That is because it should never have been on a cart in the first place. If I burn my hand catching a hot pan I placed on the edge of a counter top, am I being punished for breaking a rule?
God did accept Jepthath's vow, and both parties lived up to the agreement. Therefore, is it morally right or morally wrong to murder an innocent person for some form of gain?
First, is it never morally right to murder. However, if Jepthah did kill his daughter, that is because it seemed right to him. That is the context of the book of Judges. It speaks of what happens when Adonai's people do what is right in their own eyes.
And a slightly different question : is human sacrifice morally right or wrong?

Lets use the bible to decide the matter. I already know very well that the secular world demands the severest sentence for both types of killing. ( and would punish both parties to a murder pact as well), but what is God's Principle on the matter?
If we are talking about HaTorah, it is not acceptable for one human to sacrifice another.

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Post #108

Post by ttruscott »

twobitsworth wrote:God did accept Jepthath's vow, and both parties lived up to the agreement.
What verse is your proof that YHWH was party to / involved in Jephthah's vow or the fulfillment of it???
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

twobitsworth
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Post #109

Post by twobitsworth »

The story is from Judges 11. I have copies the relevant bit, check out the rest of the chapter if you like.

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.

33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

twobitsworth
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Post #110

Post by twobitsworth »

twobitsworth wrote:

God did not accept the efforts of Uzza to protect the Ark. and struck him dead for breaking a rule.

That is because it should never have been on a cart in the first place. If I burn my hand catching a hot pan I placed on the edge of a counter top, am I being punished for breaking a rule?


Not a relevant example, unless you are speaking form the view that all things that happen to a person are a result of past behavior. That is, all the events in your life are God rewarding or punishing for your choices.

I don't believe that. Your example is one of natural consequences, such as running down the stairs can get your neck broken. What we have with Uzza, is GOD striking him dead....because he broke a rule. If it was God's principle that punishment is death and is meted out immediately, there would be no misunderstanding. But when we consider the example of Jepthath, we see a far more serious breaking of a rule, with the consent and assistance of God. THIS is what makes the matter difficult to reconcile, and is what I am asking.

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