What is Root of All Evil?

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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ThePainefulTruth
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What is Root of All Evil?

Post #1

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

It's not money, fame, power or sex. A moral/legal double standard is the root of all evil. Those that want to subvert the rights of others to their own can only justify their evil by declaring that morality is subjective, which would immediately castrate any possible concept of morality at all. These purveyors of subjective morality know it's an absurd contradiction, but their skill is in keeping a straight face on both faces.
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Post by McCulloch »

We are all familiar with the KJV of this passage:
1 Timothy 6:10 (King James Version) wrote:For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
This has been shown to be a mistranslation, according to just about every translator since.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New American Standard Bible) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New International Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New King James Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10 (English Standard Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New Revised Standard Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.
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Re: What is Root of All Evil?

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Post by Divine Insight »

ThePainefulTruth wrote: Those that want to subvert the rights of others to their own can only justify their evil by declaring that morality is subjective, which would immediately castrate any possible concept of morality at all. These purveyors of subjective morality know it's an absurd contradiction, but their skill is in keeping a straight face on both faces.
Who exactly are you talking about here? And in what way are you attempting to claim that it's an absurd contradiction? A contradiction to what? Absolute morality?

To begin with no one can justify anything by proclaiming that morality is subjective. That is itself an oxymoron that holds not value.

Subjective morality simply means that there is no such thing as "Objective or Absolute Morality". In other words, subjective morality simply means that we decide individual what each of us deems to be moral or not moral on a personal basis. Therefore there can be no "justification" for our choices other than our own subjective opinioins. Therefore subjective morality cannot be used as "justification" for anything.

What a person who believe in subjective morality may be able to appeal to for justification of their actions is the idea that there clearly is no objective morality at all.

The truth of the situtation exists before our very eyes in the real world. And we don't even need to look at humans to see it. Just look at the natural world. Do we see any examples or evidence of objective morality?

The answer is clearly no, we don't. There is no objective morality in this universe. This is proven by the very simple facts that natural disastasters, disease, and even flesh eating animals exist naturally and yet the behavior of these entities is deemed to be "immoral" by subjective human opinions.

Therefore, subjective human opinion basically suggests that absolute immorality actually exists in the real world. At least based on the opinions of humans.

In other words, we simply choose to label anything that does not please us as being "immoral". And that is truly the only basis of morality. Morality is nothing other than a list of subjective human opinions of what humans personally don't like. And this is precisely why we also see different humans and cultures holding diifferent moral values on various things.

The proof that morality is subjective (a human invention of opinion) is crystal clear.

However, subjective morality cannot be used to "justify" anything.

This is where many people go wrong. You OP seems to suggest that subjective morality could be used to "justify" something in a similar way that a supposedly objective morality could be used. But that itself is a false notion.

Once you realize that morality is indeed subjective and there is no such thing as objective morality, then you begin to realize that the entire concept of morality is nothing more than an invention of human opinions to begin with.

Subjective morality can only be "justified" by the individual, or group of individuals who are claiming that their opinions consitute a basis for morality. But the individuals or groups that disagree with those opinions would not concur.

And this is precisely what we actually see in the real world.

We see it existing between individuals who disagree on what is moral and what is immoral.

We see it existing between cultures that disagree onwhat is moral and immoral.

We see it existing between governments that disagree on what is moral and immoral.

We even see exising between the myriad of disagreeing religious groups who also disagree on what is moral and immoral.

In short, the only empirical evidence we have points entirely to fact that all human morality is subjective and opininated, and we have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that any absolute or objective morality exists at all.

We don't see any sign of objective morality in this universe. Not in the natural world, not in the animal kingdom, not in pathogens and diseases, and certainly there is no consistency in what humans claim to be moral.

So where is there any evidence for any such thing as absolute or objective morality? It simply doesn't exist.

In fact, the very concept of "Evil" is nothing more than a human subjective opinion in the first place. Evil is nothing more than the things that humans don't like. This may vary in some cultural religions where religious dogma attempts to proclaim that things that many humans actually do like are "evil". But there is much disagreement amoung humans over those unsupportable and unprovable dogmas.

There are many humans who disagree with the morality described by the Biblical fables for example. So there is no evidence that those dogams represent any absolute morality.

The concept of absolute morality was never a legitamate concept to begin with.
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Post #4

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

McCulloch wrote: We are all familiar with the KJV of this passage:
1 Timothy 6:10 (King James Version) wrote:For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
This has been shown to be a mistranslation, according to just about every translator since.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New American Standard Bible) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New International Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New King James Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10 (English Standard Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1 Timothy 6:10 (New Revised Standard Version) wrote:For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.
You're relying strictly on the authority of the Bible as the divinely revealed word of God, something we must accept on pure faith; and Timothy is written by Paul, a hypocritical wealthy Herodian and Roman Citizen.

To say that love of money is the root of all evil is to say that power, sex and fame have no ability to influence us to do evil, or that the righteous can't will themselves to ignore their temptations. But look at money, how is it evil? It's your right to love money if you want to be that shallow and/or unvirtuous, but it doesn't become evil until you use money to enable the violation of the rights of others. There are millions if not billions who use money honorably all the time.

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Post #5

Post by McCulloch »

ThePainefulTruth wrote:To say that love of money is the root of all evil[...]
Who says that money is the root of all evil? Not believers in the New Testament. The NT states that the love of money, not money itself, is a (not the) root of all types of evil.

What kind of strawman are you tilting at?
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Re: What is Root of All Evil?

Post #6

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

Divine Insight wrote:
ThePainefulTruth wrote: Those that want to subvert the rights of others to their own can only justify their evil by declaring that morality is subjective, which would immediately castrate any possible concept of morality at all. These purveyors of subjective morality know it's an absurd contradiction, but their skill is in keeping a straight face on both faces.
Who exactly are you talking about here? And in what way are you attempting to claim that it's an absurd contradiction? A contradiction to what? Absolute morality?

To begin with no one can justify anything by proclaiming that morality is subjective. That is itself an oxymoron that holds not value.
People on this site are "justifying" the Holocaust due to subjective morality. If you say something is subjectively moral, that means it be changed to anything you or the state has the power to enforce. What I'm doing here is echoing the cynical meaning of justification for subjective morality, because you are right, it is an oxymoron, we can't "justify" anything with subjective morality, but we do, all the time,--like slavery, or political correctness. That's my point.
Subjective morality simply means that there is no such thing as "Objective or Absolute Morality". In other words, subjective morality simply means that we decide individual what each of us deems to be moral or not moral on a personal basis.


Exactly, under subjective morality we decide individually (or by mob rule) whether genocide, slavery, rape, torture, pedophilia, human sacrifice etc. are "justified" or not. They aren't and can never be no matter how many people agree to it. All of those are examples of objective, universal morality, and should be recognized as such.
Therefore there can be no "justification" for our choices other than our own subjective opinioins. Therefore subjective morality cannot be used as "justification" for anything.
This is exactly the self-contradiction those that are attempting to rationalize sm inevitably fall into. I don't believe you can edit that statement and have it make rational sense. But we can always find those in Philosophy 101 who will accept it on faith.

In other words, we simply choose to label anything that does not please us as being "immoral".
Yet the subjective moralist can rationalize all kinds of objective immorality because it pleases him. You're arguing against what you're arguing for. There will never be anything but uncertainty and chaos under sm.
What a person who believe in subjective morality may be able to appeal to for justification of their actions is the idea that there clearly is no objective morality at all.


That hole is just getting deeper.
The truth of the situtation exists before our very eyes in the real world. And we don't even need to look at humans to see it. Just look at the natural world. Do we see any examples or evidence of objective morality?
Only humans (fully self-aware sentient creatures) are capable of morality. Because there is no morality for the rain or the rocks, that means there can be none for us?
The answer is clearly no, we don't. There is no objective morality in this universe. This is proven by the very simple facts that natural disastasters, disease, and even flesh eating animals exist naturally and yet the behavior of these entities is deemed to be "immoral" by subjective human opinions.
Who deems them to be immoral besides you? Nature and the animals, and even young children, are innocent, because they aren't self-aware and don't understand how they cause harm to other creatures.
So where is there any evidence for any such thing as absolute or objective morality? It simply doesn't exist.
It can only be deduced by fully self aware sentients. Beyond us, or similar creatures, there is no morality of any kind. We legislate morality all the time and a lot of crap as well. The same with religion. We need to separate the meat from the fat, not just adopt a blanket rejection of any absolute morality.
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Post #7

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

McCulloch wrote:
ThePainefulTruth wrote:To say that love of money is the root of all evil[...]
Who says that money is the root of all evil? Not believers in the New Testament. The NT states that the love of money, not money itself, is a (not the) root of all types of evil.

What kind of strawman are you tilting at?
Did you even read my "love of money" quote you used?

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Post #8

Post by connermt »

What is Root of All Evil?
It's not money, or the love of it
It's not 'the devil'
It's people.
It's people who create and feed evil IMO. We, as a species, do terrible evil things to others and our surroundings.
But what really shows us to be evil is, IMO, people who point the finger at others/other things and claim 'that's the root of all evil' when, in fact, it's not.

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Re: What is Root of All Evil?

Post #9

Post by Bust Nak »

ThePainefulTruth wrote: People on this site are "justifying" the Holocaust due to subjective morality.
Morality is either subjective or objective. We are no more "justifying" the Holocaust due to subjective morality then we are "justifying" all the virtue of the world due to subjective morality.
If you say something is subjectively moral, that means it be changed to anything you or the state has the power to enforce. What I'm doing here is echoing the cynical meaning of justification for subjective morality, because you are right, it is an oxymoron, we can't "justify" anything with subjective morality, but we do, all the time,--like slavery, or political correctness. That's my point.
Who is this "we?" We aren't justifying it, because it makes no sense. I've never see anyone say slavery is moral because morality is subjective.
Exactly, under subjective morality we decide individually (or by mob rule) whether genocide, slavery, rape, torture, pedophilia, human sacrifice etc. are "justified" or not.
Why is justified in quote? Who has ever say that Holocaust was moral because morality is subjective?

You do see the difference between saying "this pizza is tasty because I love the smoky bacon topping on it" and "this pizza is tasty because taste is a matter of opinion"? Have you ever hear anyone say anything resembling the latter?
They aren't and can never be no matter how many people agree to it. All of those are examples of objective, universal morality, and should be recognized as such.
That's objectivists' claim anyway. Care to demostrate that?
This is exactly the self-contradiction those that are attempting to rationalize sm inevitably fall into. I don't believe you can edit that statement and have it make rational sense. But we can always find those in Philosophy 101 who will accept it on faith.
See the pizza analogy above. Are you going to deny that taste is subjective now?
Yet the subjective moralist can rationalize all kinds of objective immorality because it pleases him. You're arguing against what you're arguing for. There will never be anything but uncertainty and chaos under sm.
Firstly you are misinterpreting us. Note the difference between saying "XYZ is moral because of ABC subjective reason" and saying "XYZ is moral because of morality is subjective." We are arguing for the first and against the latter. You are accusing us of the latter when we are doing the first.
Secondly you have yet to demostrate that there is any kind of objective immorality.
Only humans (fully self-aware sentient creatures) are capable of morality. Because there is no morality for the rain or the rocks, that means there can be none for us?
There are many creature with the sufficient brain power to be called moral agent, if not to the degree we are. No one here has ever suggested that because there is no morality for the rain or the rocks, that means there can be none for us. We are saying we can't see any objective morality for us.
Who deems them to be immoral besides you? Nature and the animals, and even young children, are innocent, because they aren't self-aware and don't understand how they cause harm to other creatures.
Exactly. Which is why we know morality is subjective.
It can only be deduced by fully self aware sentients. Beyond us, or similar creatures, there is no morality of any kind. We legislate morality all the time and a lot of crap as well. The same with religion. We need to separate the meat from the fat, not just adopt a blanket rejection of any absolute morality.
In what way exactly, is it inaccurate to call something that is subjective to the minds of self aware sentients, "subjective?"

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Post #10

Post by ThePainefulTruth »

connermt wrote: What is Root of All Evil?
It's not money, or the love of it
It's not 'the devil'
It's people.
It's people who create and feed evil IMO. We, as a species, do terrible evil things to others and our surroundings.
But what really shows us to be evil is, IMO, people who point the finger at others/other things and claim 'that's the root of all evil' when, in fact, it's not.
OK, so what should we do, ignore evil? If you say yes, we're just asking for another Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Johnson, Kim etc. And if you say no, don't we have to be able to understand evil enough so that it's recognizable, in order to avoid it?

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