How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[wannabe]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

I was reading through all the replies and noticed that no one looked at the big picture.
Sure it was all gods plan for man to sin, but only so he could separate good from evil and as such ensure every one who entered into heaven earned their place, and understood their right to be there.

Otherwise how else could God be sure of the intentions of those he allowed into heaven.

As evil as it all sounds there is good on the earth. It isn't a punishment we are here for . The earth is a proving ground and genesis just explains how it came about.

And I'll still love Adam and Eve when I meet them in heaven.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 61 by wannabe]

Sure it was all gods plan for man to sin, but only so he could separate good from evil and as such ensure every one who entered into heaven earned their place, and understood their right to be there.

There is one problem with this theory. All of us have sinned and none of us can earn a place in Heaven or has any right to be there. Christ died to atone for sin and only those who have been forgiven by faith in him will enter Heaven.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:23-26 ESV)

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

I was reading through all the replies and noticed that no one looked at the big picture.
Sure it was all gods plan for man to sin, but only so he could separate good from evil and as such ensure every one who entered into heaven earned their place, and understood their right to be there.

...

Consider that in HIS goal of a marriage partner for the Lamb, HE had no need for a sinful person at all, no need to plan for man's fall since if every person created in HIS image had chosen to accept HIS deity on their first free will decision, then the heavenly state would have started immediately and the rejoicing would still be going on.

"It was all gods plan for man to sin" is a far cry from "it was gods plan to be prepared IF HIS creation should choose to sin." To plan our sinfulness makes HIM culpable for our being sinful and therefore HIS holiness is compromised and our guilt is negated. I am not a hard core Calvinist to believe this doctrine...

[wannabe]

[Replying to post 63 by ttruscott]

The way I see it.

It's Yin Yang - One can not exist without the other. Good cannot exist without evil,
Or evil without good. light does not exist without dark, and hot does not exist without cold.
Otherwise what else does each (hot, light, good) have a reference to (cold, dark, evil).

God had to know evil would exist, before he created conscience man with intelligence.

Even "existence verses non-existence ", can exist beside each other, because then "non-existence" becomes a lie, and "existence" becomes a truth.

God recognizes everything.

I concede it may not have been gods plan for man to sin , however God can not exist in denial.

Also God states in Genesis , as he is creating, that "God saw that the light was good" . Genesis 1:3

[wannabe]

[Replying to post 62 by puddleglum]


Quote " there is one problem with this theory. ...."

How does the action of repentance not equate to earning your trust in God. (Along with good works).
Also heaven was not created to remain empty.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 64 by wannabe]

Good cannot exist without evil,

How do you know this is true?

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
(Genesis 1:31 ESV)

There was a time in the past when there everything was good and there was no evil.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.�
(Revelation 21:3-4 ESV)

A time is coming when all evil will have been purged from creation and once again there will only be good.

How does the action of repentance not equate to earning your trust in God. (Along with good works).

Repentance is receiving what God offers as a free and undeserved gift.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 63 by ttruscott]

The way I see it.

It's Yin Yang - One can not exist without the other. Good cannot exist without evil,
Or evil without good. light does not exist without dark, and hot does not exist without cold.
Otherwise what else does each (hot, light, good) have a reference to (cold, dark, evil).

God had to know evil would exist, before he created conscience man with intelligence.

Even "existence verses non-existence ", can exist beside each other, because then "non-existence" becomes a lie, and "existence" becomes a truth.

God recognizes everything.

I concede it may not have been gods plan for man to sin , however God can not exist in denial.

Also God states in Genesis , as he is creating, that "God saw that the light was good" . Genesis 1:3

Of course you do...and until you have good reason to think differently, don't change your mind. Every religion and philosophy on earth espouses the same thing - except Christianity that says "No, sin is was created by man and will be ended in created reality by the judgment!" That is, before the creation of sin by the free will decision of someone created in HIS image there was no sin. Period. When HE created us with a free will and the ability to self create our moral characters from innocence to either perfectly holy or perfectly evil, that is, against HIM and HIS moral character, there was no evil in existence. Period.

Now about your interpretation of Genesis 1:3 "God saw that the light was good":

If we apply what we know of physical light to Gen 1:3 and following we get mired pretty fast...so I suggest we must understand it as an allusion to something else.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

WoW - light with no darkness... IF this light is the visible light our eyes can see, then by making it, it creates its own darkness...How can light be not separated from darkness or how can it be so separated if it wasn't already separated by its creation? Can this really apply to visible light? Doesn't sound like light we know, does it?

So, was GOD doing tricks with visible light or does this point to something else?

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Does "GOD is light" refer to a visible glow or shine like a star or sun? This is weird stuff right? Does “Let there be light,� mean HE self created HIMself? Well of course not, so light is a characteristic of GOD, a divine attribute:

http://bible.cc/1_john/1-5.htm
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
That God is light - Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of purity, truth, knowledge, prosperity, and happiness - as darkness is of the opposite. John here says that "God is light" - φῶς ph�s - not the light, or a light, but light itself; that is, he is himself all light, and is the source and fountain of light in all worlds. He is perfectly pure, without any admixture of sin. He has all knowledge, with no admixture of ignorance on any subject. He is infinitely happy, with nothing to make him miserable. He is infinitely true, never stating or countenancing error; he is blessed in all his ways, never knowing the darkness of disappointment and adversity.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
...that is, as light is opposed to the darkness of sin; he is pure and holy in his nature and works, and of such pure eyes as not to behold iniquity; and so perfectly holy, that angels cover their times before him, when they speak of his holiness:

Vincent's Word Studies
God is Light (Θεὸς φῶς �στὶν)
A statement of the absolute nature of God. Not a light, nor the light, with reference to created beings, as the light of men, the light of the world, but simply and absolutely God is light, in His very nature. Compare God is spirit, and see on John 4:24 : God is love, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. The expression is not a metaphor. "All that we are accustomed to term light in the domain of the creature, whether with a physical or metaphysical meaning, is only an effluence of that one and only primitive Light which appears in the nature of God" (Ebrard). Light is immaterial, diffusive, pure, and glorious. It is the condition of life.

People's New Testament
John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him. The message heard from Christ, now declared, is that God is light. The source whence all light, whether it be physical, or moral, or spiritual, comes ; the Enlightener of the universe. The term denotes luminous clearness, the free and benevolent source from whence flow light, intelligence, purity and blessing, absolutely free from alien intermixture, since in him there is no darkness at all. Light represents truth, knowledge and holiness. Darkness represents ignorance, error, falsehood and sin.

In terms used by the Scripture to define LIGHT in other places, this would mean that GOD created goodness and separated it from evil…

LIGHT IS FAITH:
LIGHT is the moral attribute of goodness and life by faith unto righteousness and darkness is evil, rejecting GOD by faith, and death. And in Gen 1:4 GOD separated between them: Genesis 1:4 God saw that the light was good, and HE separated the light from the darkness.

This suggests that ALL people created in HIS image already existed by the end of verse 2 or between the verses and speaks to the free will decision that was the separation between all those who accepted YHWH as their GOD and those who rejected HIM as a false god.

So might not Genesis 1:3 read: And God said, “Let there be light,� [ie faith unto righteousness] and there was light [faith]. 4 God saw that the light [faith] was good, and he separated the light from the darkness [evil, rejecters, antagonists to HIS will].

FAITH BY FREE WILL:
Pre-conception existance theology contends that HE did this by asking for our true free will decisions to either accept HIS purpose for our creation or by rejecting that purpose because we thought HE was a false god, unable to fulfill his warnings of the consequences, and we did not have to bow to anyone. The separation was finalized by the election of the sons of light to HIS eternal church while He left the dark to their chosen perdition.

To ensure that none of HIS newly elected church would be destroyed by sin, HE gave all HIS elect the gospel promise that if any of HIS elect should rebel against HIS will and chose to become evil in HIS sight that though that would put them outside of HIS will, (sheep gone astray), it would not put them outside of HIS grace nor love and that HE would always do what was necessary to bring them back to HIMself in accord with their first true free will decision, (sheep returned to their Shepherd).

[improbulos]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Read Adam and Eve Revisited. That's my take on the Adam and Eve Fable.

Adam and Eve Revisited: A Free Will Story

or
What if Lucifer Said "No?" (Free Will Stories)


Either way you will learn what happens when they just say no!

I M Probulos

[improbulos]

[Replying to post 67 by ttruscott]

The meme or popular belief that good cannot exist without evil is incorrect.

In this world they are just two ends of the statistical theory of everything. There is simply good things on one end and bad things to certain people or things on the other end.

I wrote a short story of a world without sin, death, or evil.

since it can exist it disproves your theory which is simply what people repeat over and over until they believe it, like God is love or God is all good. It explains the state of the world and human suffering and all bad stuff.

"just gotta have it!"

Read
The Other God's Earth: No Sin, No Death, No Evil


and then tell me why your God, or the God of this earth is better. Or better yet, why is Suroh not a superior god?

I await your answer.

Since technically the world was created originally without sin, death and evil, the argument is even more ludicrous.

But TOGE is much better.

I M Probulos

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 67 by ttruscott]

The meme or popular belief that good cannot exist without evil is incorrect.

I await your answer.

You got the wrong guy or you misunderstood something. I have long contended that no evil needs to exist in GOD's reality for any reason.