How would you react to Adam and Eve?

[OnceConvinced]

Adam and Steve... I mean Eve... were supposedly responsible for the fall of man. Due to their disobedience all of mankind was cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffering was piled upon them. Some even believe that sin corrupted the world and animals that were once herbivores became carnivores. Animals that were once harmless became venomous. Some believe that viruses and disease sprouted up as a result of sin entering creation.

Adam and Eve were the ones responsible for this, so surely everyone should be enraged at them? When you get to Heaven, surely, you will want to kick their asses for being so stupid and sentencing mankind to suffering on Earth?

Or do you see them as innocent beings in a dirty trick played by God? That God set them up to fail? Do you see God as the one responsible for all the suffering, so you don't blame Adam and Eve for what's happened?

Or perhaps you are even delighted that Adam and Eve did what they did, because you got to live a pretty cool life on a pretty cool planet. So you are grateful for their disobedience?

What do you think of Adam and Eve?

How would YOU react to Adam and Eve if you met them in Heaven?

[marco]

[quote="ttruscott"]

Now about your interpretation of Genesis 1:3 "God saw that the light was good":

If we apply what we know of physical light to Gen 1:3 and following we get mired pretty fast...so I suggest we must understand it as an allusion to something else.

Delightful though your interpretation of Genesis 1:3 is, it has only a tenuous link to Adam's sin. You can take a metaphorical interpretation of light if you want, but the surrounding verses make it clear we're talking about night and day. Yes, the whole description is hardly a science text, but that's the way Genesis is. If we're going for metaphor, best regard Adam and Eve as fictional and the whole account as poetry.

So what should our opinion of this fictional couple be? Let's hear how they talk:
Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man." Obviously Adam was a genius. We also have the silly prudery: "They were both naked and were not ashamed" reflecting the mores of the writer.

[1 Samuel 15]

Very interesting OP.

I view Adam and Eve as children. They disobeyed god and did a thing they weren't supposed to. Eve was persuaded into doing it by the devil who is extremely smart and crafty.

God obviously created the "devil". Did God create the devil extremely smart and crafty or did the devil learn those skills? If it was learned then who was the teacher?

[ttruscott]

God obviously created the "devil". Did God create the devil extremely smart and crafty or did the devil learn those skills? If it was learned then who was the teacher?

What do you accept as proof that the devil was CREATED as crafty which means cunning in an evil way? I reject this idea since GOD is the living water and a well of clean fresh water cannot give forth salt or swamp water so GOD cannot create evil which is death.

What is the proof you accept that he was created any better than anyone else as an adult and not as a member of a society in which everyone grew in self awareness, other awareness and all knowledge available without a physical reality, music, math and poetic expression etc.?

I contend that the differences we see on earth between people's abilities are due to our having chosen to be sinners and evil, and not due our creation.

[1 Samuel 15]

[Replying to post 72 by ttruscott]

Was god surprised the devil rebelled? Totally blindsided? Did god know before creating the devil/serpent of what it would ultimately do in the garden?

Are you going to go with free will excuse next?

[1 Samuel 15]

[Replying to post 72 by ttruscott]

Was god surprised the devil rebelled? Totally blindsided? Did god know before creating the devil/serpent of what it would ultimately do in the garden?

Are you going to go with free will excuse next?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 72 by ttruscott]
Are you going to go with free will excuse next?

Oooooo, defaming my answer by calling it an excuse before I even make it, nice touch.
Annnnd ignoring my question as to your proof Satan was created evil...since I contend that no one was created evil.

Was god surprised the devil rebelled? Totally blindsided?

No, HE was not surprised. HE knew the possibility of someone choosing to be evil but I'm sure the reality of Satan making that first choice saddened HIM.

Did god know before creating the devil/serpent of what it would ultimately do in the garden?

At this time I go with the theory that the earth was created as a prison for all sinners (only sinners are born human) with a rehab center in it to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil to make them heaven ready. When the last one repents and chooses holiness, then the judgement will start.

As part of HIS method for curing HIS sinful elect, HE apparently has given us perfect lives for our particular needs, predetermined to cause us to seek HIM and repentance. Both the fact that we are sinners and the fact of our predestination speak strongly against our having any free will here on earth until after we have been reborn and sanctified.

The events in the garden were obviously a setup: A&E were set up to fail to prove to them they were sinful / naked so they could become ashamed and so seek repentance and redemption and their friend the serpent was setup to disclose to them just how evil he was by his betrayal of them for no good reason other than that is who he is. GOD didn't have to coerce him to do this, HE just had to allow him the opportunity...

[1 Samuel 15]

[Replying to post 72 by ttruscott]
Are you going to go with free will excuse next?

Oooooo, defaming my answer by calling it an excuse before I even make it, nice touch.
Annnnd ignoring my question as to your proof Satan was created evil...since I contend that no one was created evil.

I did not make the claim god created the devil evil. I only ask questions how the devil became evil. only two ways, right? Created that way or learned it from something or someone, no?

Now god inspired this, did it not?

god said:

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

And

Romans 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So the devil could have been created that way or god could have chose to harden the devils heart like Pharaohs?

Was god surprised the devil rebelled? Totally blindsided?

No, HE was not surprised. HE knew the possibility of someone choosing to be evil but I'm sure the reality of Satan making that first choice saddened HIM.

god knew the possibility? You believe god is omniscient, don't you?

Did god know before creating the devil/serpent of what it would ultimately do in the garden?

At this time I go with the theory that the earth was created as a prison for all sinners (only sinners are born human) with a rehab center in it to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil to make them heaven ready. When the last one repents and chooses holiness, then the judgement will start.

As part of HIS method for curing HIS sinful elect, HE apparently has given us perfect lives for our particular needs, predetermined to cause us to seek HIM and repentance. Both the fact that we are sinners and the fact of our predestination speak strongly against our having any free will here on earth until after we have been reborn and sanctified.

The events in the garden were obviously a setup: A&E were set up to fail to prove to them they were sinful / naked so they could become ashamed and so seek repentance and redemption and their friend the serpent was setup to disclose to them just how evil he was by his betrayal of them for no good reason other than that is who he is. GOD didn't have to coerce him to do this, HE just had to allow him the opportunity...

Well thats really out there i must say. Don't even know where to go with this.

[ttruscott]

I did not make the claim god created the devil evil. I only ask questions how the devil became evil. only two ways, right? Created that way or learned it from something or someone, no?

Ok, I won't belabour the point that God obviously created the "devil" is not the same as GOD created the person who became the devil.... since devil has a moral connotation.

GOD offered everyone created in HIS image a choice.
1. To accept HIS deity on faith, that is, without proof by which choice we would become HIS elect chosen to heaven by means of our salvation from any future sin.
2. To reject HIS claims to deity and HIS offer of paradise by putting their faith, an unproven hope, that HE was a false GOD telling lies.

Those who rejected HIS claims became, that is, were self created, as evil. Their will, their intent, their 'heart's' desires so to speak, were subverted by this rejection and enslaved / addicted by the power of evil over them. They had no need to be taught anything since once they were evil, James 1:14 ...but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. When an evil thought is accepted, all following thoughts will flow from that place of evil, not from any prior place of innocence and without GOD breaking that flow, no one can resist.

god said:

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The word evil in this verse as has been mentioned so many times is the word


And

Romans 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So the devil could have been created that way or god could have chose to harden the devils heart like Pharaohs?

Was god surprised the devil rebelled? Totally blindsided?

No, HE was not surprised. HE knew the possibility of someone choosing to be evil but I'm sure the reality of Satan making that first choice saddened HIM.

god knew the possibility? You believe god is omniscient, don't you?

Did god know before creating the devil/serpent of what it would ultimately do in the garden?

At this time I go with the theory that the earth was created as a prison for all sinners (only sinners are born human) with a rehab center in it to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil to make them heaven ready. When the last one repents and chooses holiness, then the judgement will start.

As part of HIS method for curing HIS sinful elect, HE apparently has given us perfect lives for our particular needs, predetermined to cause us to seek HIM and repentance. Both the fact that we are sinners and the fact of our predestination speak strongly against our having any free will here on earth until after we have been reborn and sanctified.

The events in the garden were obviously a setup: A&E were set up to fail to prove to them they were sinful / naked so they could become ashamed and so seek repentance and redemption and their friend the serpent was setup to disclose to them just how evil he was by his betrayal of them for no good reason other than that is who he is. GOD didn't have to coerce him to do this, HE just had to allow him the opportunity...

Well thats really out there i must say. Don't even know where to go with this.[/quote]

[ttruscott]

I did not make the claim god created the devil evil. I only ask questions how the devil became evil. only two ways, right? Created that way or learned it from something or someone, no?

Ok, I won't belabour the point that God obviously created the "devil" is not the same as GOD created the person who became the devil.... since devil has a moral connotation.

GOD offered everyone created in HIS image a choice.
1. To accept HIS deity on faith, that is, without proof by which choice we would become HIS elect chosen to heaven by means of our salvation from any future sin.
2. To reject HIS claims to deity and HIS offer of paradise by putting their faith, an unproven hope, that HE was a false GOD telling lies.

Those who rejected HIS claims became, that is, were self created, as evil. Their will, their intent, their 'heart's' desires so to speak, were subverted by this rejection and enslaved / addicted by the power of evil over them. They had no need to be taught anything since once they were evil, James 1:14 ...but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. When an evil thought is accepted, all following thoughts will flow from that place of evil, not from any prior place of innocence and without GOD breaking that flow, no one can resist.

god said:

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Ahhh, the ra` ra` ra` bandwagon...The word evil in this verse is the word ra` which ranges from an unpleasantness to a disaster. To imbue it with the meaning of our English word evil as moral evil is unacceptable in this verse because scripture cannot contradict scripture and as GOD is holy and light, no dark or moral evil can come from HIM. GOD does create disasters as judgements upon sin but HE did not create moral evil...HE allowed it to be created.

Romans 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So the devil could have been created that way or god could have chose to harden the devils heart like Pharaohs?

Well, not by the Christian GOD, YHWH. To harden someone is NOT to make them evil against their will but entails only removing the GOD given restrictions (conscience or fear of reprisal) they feel against an evil they want to do so they feel righteous and strong doing it. In other words to harden someone is to allow them to do the evil they want to do already.

Pharaoh was not Moses’ good friend until GOD made him to hate Moses and go for genocide of all Hebrews. He already hated them and wanted to make war on them but the story clearly states he was afraid of Moses’ GOD…until he wasn’t.

Christians believe it is against GOD's revealed nature to take an innocent or morally good person and harden him by your definition to make him be and act morally evil. All evil was chosen by a rejection of YHWH's claims as to what was good and righteous.

god knew the possibility? You believe god is omniscient, don't you?

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity past to eternity future is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church and is proven wrong as it leads inevitably to the the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.

Much better is the [only] Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works refers to HIS creative decrees.

Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for our selves.


My choice is to be true to Scripture, not to Greek wisdom which is a foolishness to GOD.

[Saint_of_Me]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

As a Born Again Christian and a man of science.....yeah, I know, weird combo, huh?...I personally never ascribed to the doctrine of Original Sin. NOR The Fall.

How any theologian can say an innocent baby born today is already Fallen and mired in sin because of a Hebrew Myth written some 2500 years ago has always baffled me.

Back in my atheist days I was fond of citing this tale from Genesis as a prime example of the absurdity of Christianity and Judaism.

And nowadays I still fairly loathe the story.

I consider it merely an allegorical cautionary tale warning us that a desire to transcend our limitations and vulnerability to the Will of God can remove us from His Grace.

Or something along those lines!

LOL.......thanks!