Help Needed! School Assignment on Politics and Lying

[ASOAK7]

Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain work or theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. I landed on Plato’s Republic. In the Republic, Socrates develops the idea of what he calls the “noble lie.� The noble lie is any sort of falsehood used by the rulers of a city or nation to misdirect and manipulate those they rule to keep them under control and to ensure they do not do anything that would not be in their best interests. In Socrates’ mind, this is a noble gesture, as the common man is incapable of seeing things as they are or knowing how he ought to live his life. As such, it falls to rulers to govern in whatever way they can and to make certain men do not try to rise beyond their stations in life to their own hurt and the hurt of those around them. This kind of mindset seems to dominate the political landscape of today, and it seems that most take it for granted that politicians are disingenuous without asking whether or not such conduct is okay. In light of this discussion and current events such as the Hillary Clinton Benghazi scandal, I would like to pose four questions and would appreciate your feedback:

- Should a political leader like President Obama lie to other world leaders if he thinks such deception would be in the best interest of the American people? To representatives of another branch of our government such as Congress? To American citizens themselves?

- Should the President lie to any of the aforementioned groups to protect or benefit himself or his political party?

- Are there certain circumstances or relationships where such lies are not permissible? Are there certain topics or issues that should not be lied about?

- Does everyone have the right to tell “permissible lies� or only certain people?

[puddleglum]

[Replying to post 1 by ASOAK7]

- Should a political leader like President Obama lie to other world leaders if he thinks such deception would be in the best interest of the American people? To representatives of another branch of our government such as Congress? To American citizens themselves?

There may be certain information that it would be best to conceal from others but most of the time that can be accomplished without lying.

- Should the President lie to any of the aforementioned groups to protect or benefit himself or his political party?

No.

- Does everyone have the right to tell “permissible lies� or only certain people?

If there is such a thing as "permissible lying" everyone should have the same right to do it. There are places in the Bible where God does allow lying when it is necessary to protect human life but aside from this we are always supposed to tell the truth.

[ASOAK7]

[Replying to puddleglum]

Puddleglum,

First of all, great name.

Second of all, do you think there is such a thing as a sin of omission when it comes to truth-telling? Is leaving something important/true out the same as putting some false in?

Third, do you think there are certain spheres in which lies are never appropriate/acceptable?

Thank you very much for your response.

[puddleglum]

[Replying to puddleglum]

do you think there is such a thing as a sin of omission when it comes to truth-telling? Is leaving something important/true out the same as putting some false in?

Deliberately leaving out information can be as bad as lying in some circumstances. Sometimes, though, you are speaking to people who don't have the right to know certain things and then it is better to leave out facts rather than lie. One example of this would be situations where telling the whole truth would cause harm to innocent people.

Third, do you think there are certain spheres in which lies are never appropriate/acceptable?

There probably are. I have never thought much about this subject so I am not sure what they would be.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 1 by ASOAK7]

One of the problems with such 'noble lies' (in politics) is the requirement of thinking you know better than others - factually or morally. It also makes mistakes much harder to reverse, and much less forewarning for upcoming issues.

[ASOAK7]

Thank you all so very much for your input! I'm hoping to respond with a few questions for each of you in turn in the near future but want to be sure to let you all know how much I appreciate you taking the time to assist me with this!

[ASOAK7]

[Replying to puddleglum]

Thank you very much for your responses. Two pushback questions:

Is it always the case that lying in an instance where telling the whole truth would harm innocent people is acceptable? How do you determine whether or not someone has "the right" to know certain things?

Also, I appreciate your honesty and openness in regard to the third question.

[ASOAK7]

[Replying to post 5 by Jashwell]

Why would you say this is a problem, especially when it comes to facts? I know there are all kinds of worldview questions that play into this but would like to better understand your position. When you say forewarning, are you speaking in reference to the general populace? Also, how does it make mistakes harder to reverse?

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Jashwell; I greatly appreciate it.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 8 by ASOAK7]

Lying is fundamentally anti-democratic. Lying is taking the judgement of a person, or of a group of people, out of the equation. In that regard, lying functions in a similar way to censorship (except it goes after the people, and not the content).

Lying has one of the same consequences as censorship - if you've been censoring a certain claim, or publishing lies to "show it's false" (because you think it is), but it's actually true, you've wasted a lot of people's time and effort.
If that claim happens to be about an impending problem, then the time you've wasted could've been spent preventing or bracing for it, and if it's about an ongoing problem, then more losses will have been incurred.

If a politician tells a lie to get an act passed, the reason they do so is because they believe that the act will have positive consequences. The moment they tell the lie they are practically stating either, "I know better than you do. What you really want is this:" or "What I want is more important than what you want.". They could be wrong (they probably are).

The problem is with the politician claiming that they know better, or that their values and views are more important, or are the 'correct ones'. They could easily be wrong.

[catnip]

Hello all. I have a school assignment that I am working on that requires me to pose some questions related to a certain work or theme my class has looked at over the course of the semester and dialogue with those who respond. I landed on Plato’s Republic. In the Republic, Socrates develops the idea of what he calls the “noble lie.� The noble lie is any sort of falsehood used by the rulers of a city or nation to misdirect and manipulate those they rule to keep them under control and to ensure they do not do anything that would not be in their best interests. In Socrates’ mind, this is a noble gesture, as the common man is incapable of seeing things as they are or knowing how he ought to live his life. As such, it falls to rulers to govern in whatever way they can and to make certain men do not try to rise beyond their stations in life to their own hurt and the hurt of those around them. This kind of mindset seems to dominate the political landscape of today, and it seems that most take it for granted that politicians are disingenuous without asking whether or not such conduct is okay. In light of this discussion and current events such as the Hillary Clinton Benghazi scandal, I would like to pose four questions and would appreciate your feedback:

- Should a political leader like President Obama lie to other world leaders if he thinks such deception would be in the best interest of the American people? To representatives of another branch of our government such as Congress? To American citizens themselves?

No, I don't think so. If there is no inherent honesty and integrity then the U.S. government loses all trust both from foreign leaders and their constituency.

A small lie between two ordinary people can show you the results on a greater scale, except that more is at stake. If there is a doubt, no confidence is the result. The worst lies I can remember in my lifetime were the lies told to convince us to go to war with Iraq. Those were very costly lies and there was no wisdom from the leadership who perpetrated them against us. We begin to see lies everywhere. The Benghazi affair is a good example. From reading up on the hearings, I can see that Clinton might have actually thought the videos were the impetus. Not that I favor Clinton, but I have my doubts about her accusers who gain politically by their accusations.

Trust is the source of our power internationally and yes, we have lost it, and in the past we had much more respect than we have had in recent decades. We are now despised the world over and if we don't scurry around to improve our image, it will destroy us. In short, we are planting the seeds of our own destruction.

- Should the President lie to any of the aforementioned groups to protect or benefit himself or his political party?

Most people can tell when they are being lied to. One thing that bothers me is that we are now knowingly tolerating lies from the side we favor and disparaging those who oppose them regardless of their (possible) good intentions. I'm thinking of a Time article that was published during the last presidential race that pointed out the dishonesty of the candidates and the attitudes of the voters towards it.

- Are there certain circumstances or relationships where such lies are not permissible? Are there certain topics or issues that should not be lied about?

Of course there are, but every lie should be examined as to the ethical implications behind it beforehand and honestly evaluated in light of its possible exposure.

- Does everyone have the right to tell “permissible lies� or only certain people?

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I think the measure of what is permissible has passed ethical bounds. What is the cost? I think it is high. Trust is the source of power and when it is lost, so is power.

Edit to say this: I am an admirer of Abraham Lincoln, reputedly one of our greatest presidents, and one of his monikers was "Honest Abe." I think that says a lot about the man and I think deep down we all know that.

I'm afraid my answer may be too late to be helpful. Good subject!