Do you believe it's okay to use deceit...

[rookiebatman]

I got really steamed today when I found out that there's a website called "prochoice.com," that's actually full of anti-abortion propaganda. It's filled with blatant emotional manipulation, while flying under the false flag of just helping you understand what your choices are. Being somewhat interested in the the evolution debate, I've also found that people on the creationism/ID side use deceptive tactics quite regularly as well (Ben Stein's Expelled movie being a sterling example).

There's a famous quote attributed to Martin Luther (though it's hard to get firsthand confirmation that he really said this, since the primary source would be in German), in which he reportedly said, "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

Do you believe that it's okay to lie or use deceit in the service of a more significant message that you believe is true?

[Strider324]

[Replying to post 1 by rookiebatman]

No. Any lie that would be necessary to benefit some view simply indicates that the view cannot stand on its own merits. I don't teach my children that lying is OK if it results in some benefit to them.

[OnceConvinced]

If you need to lie to get people to believe a truth, then I have to question just how true the so-called "truth" is.

My father is a committed Christian. I always saw him as a great role-model of a Christian, even though he had his faults. He has always been a genuine believer and lived his life as a Christian should. But he has always hated any teaching of evolution. All throughout my childhood whenever a documentary was on TV that supported evolution or suggested that the something was over 6000 years old, he would scoff and call it a lie. "The world is not that old".

I was shocked a few weeks back when my father and I were talking about evolution. He started up with the deliberate misrepresentation that evolution teaches men evolved from monkeys. I called him out on that lie and told him that we evolved from apes not monkeys. He immediately back tracked on that claim saying "Oh yes, I know that..." and then proceeded to tell another deliberate lie about evolution (one that I can't recall off hand at this moment). I called him out on that one too. Immediately he back tracked and said "Oh yeah, I know but...' And then went on to some other anti-evolution nonsense.

I just couldn't believe that he would blatantly lie about this stuff, when he knew full well it wasn't true. But I realised why that was. It was because he detested evolution so much he was willing to lie about it in the hope that he could turn others off believing it!

It was a huge eye opener for me. That someone would so blatantly lie about something just because he was so anti. And my father of all people! Someone whose words I always trusted! What else was he lying about that he knew was not true?

Religious folk are so desperate to hold onto their fantasies that it seems many will lie about it. Just as long as they can get people to believe it too. Or in the case of something like evolution - disbelieve it.

The same must also surely apply to other religions too. What lies do Christians tell about other religions and gods to try to deter people from them?

Is it ok to lie about them if they believe they are guiding people to ultimate truth?

I really don't think so. Ultimate truth should be able to stand on its own without lies.

[GTO50]

I got really steamed today when I found out that there's a website called "prochoice.com," that's actually full of anti-abortion propaganda. It's filled with blatant emotional manipulation, while flying under the false flag of just helping you understand what your choices are. Being somewhat interested in the the evolution debate, I've also found that people on the creationism/ID side use deceptive tactics quite regularly as well (Ben Stein's Expelled movie being a sterling example).

There's a famous quote attributed to Martin Luther (though it's hard to get firsthand confirmation that he really said this, since the primary source would be in German), in which he reportedly said, "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

Do you believe that it's okay to lie or use deceit in the service of a more significant message that you believe is true?

I believe it is alright to do anything as long as it is not evil.

[Delphi]

I once spoke with a Christian and we were discussing origins. Including the origin of life on Earth.

I said that nobody really knows how life began. He disagreed and said "I KNOW how life began". Of course this was in reference to Genesis chapter 1.

"You may believe that you have the answer," I said, "but how can you say that you actually know the answer? Faith is not knowledge, is it?"

"Faith IS evidence." He retorted. "Hebrews 11:1 says so."

While this is not outright deceit or lies, I would call this type of thinking and assertion as being completely dishonest. I find it downright fraudulent to assert knowledge of such an outrageous claim without providing verifiable justification.

Is faith verifiable justification? Is faith evidence? Is belief knowledge? Methinks no, no, and no.

[Wootah]

I got really steamed today when I found out that there's a website called "prochoice.com," that's actually full of anti-abortion propaganda. It's filled with blatant emotional manipulation, while flying under the false flag of just helping you understand what your choices are. Being somewhat interested in the the evolution debate, I've also found that people on the creationism/ID side use deceptive tactics quite regularly as well (Ben Stein's Expelled movie being a sterling example).

There's a famous quote attributed to Martin Luther (though it's hard to get firsthand confirmation that he really said this, since the primary source would be in German), in which he reportedly said, "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

Do you believe that it's okay to lie or use deceit in the service of a more significant message that you believe is true?

Of course it's not ok to use deceit.

Unless, what if, just say I could survive and reproduce better bu doing so? Many animals do it. Why can't humans?

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by rookiebatman]

Do you believe that it's okay to lie or use deceit in the service of a more significant message that you believe is true?

Seems that would be like 'two wrongs don't make a right' in a way.
Besides, if the message is true and just, there wouldn't be a need to lie would there?
How trustworthy would the cause be if its disciples were liars?