Marriage at very young age

[mms20102]

Marriage at the age of 10 11 and 12 was the habit of the 11th up to 17th century what do you think about it

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 29 by KenRU]

1- Well you have to excuse my forgein culture according to what I have learned the word in Arabic matchs the word in English the meaning should have been the same but no problem

2- If " Premarital sex " Is a good thing according to your culture then you have changed women to be " whores " where they can have sex with any partner and with no restrictions and changed men to be lust seekers as they can go to strip club and pick what ever woman they want and change them one by one then you speak about morality and how ancient people were barbaric ! Well for me ancient people had more morals than you they used to cover their bodies and they used not to have premarital sex and they have considered it as a shame to be done

3- I guess I will need to make a whole new topic about premarital sex

4- Well you have missed the point that that was a norm that time " I like the thats in this sentence "

5- You don't have to be afraid its the truth at ancient times girls of high class were protected from premarital sex and it was considered to be a nasty thing that the rest of women do and up till now in my society the one who does premarital sex is considered as unchaste woman and according to my religion she is punishable after 4 have to witness that they saw her do it and only the governor of the country is to decide to apply the punishment

6- Well its totally clear that a child is any human who didn't have puberty a teen is the child who already became physically mature . According to statistics the puberty age is around 17 for girls so logically you will have hard time finding a fertile 13 year old " teen " and I have to tell you that youth would be suitable for 19 year old girl

7- http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... -a-work-in...
I have searched for the word children and I found 0 maybe you should consult scientists on when a child become a teenager

From this post I can understand that " Teenagers " are better lovers than adults since they will emotionally stay together to face hard life issues while adults would choose divorce according to their logic
Pretty interesting

8- I guess you need some information about puberty
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/puberty/Page ... signs.aspx

Puberty is when a child’s body begins to develop and change as they become an adult.

After a year or so of puberty beginning, and for the next couple of years:
•Girls' breasts continue to grow and become fuller.
•Around two years after beginning puberty, girls usually have their first period. Read more about starting periods.


As you can read puberty totally means the start of process for the body to become adult has started
at 7th century Arabia the only sign for a girl to be mature is her period .

9- I'm not backpedalling I'm replying Marco's claim that she was 9 please I'm speaking very simple English

10 - If they were at any time 9 year old considered to be consenting adult biologically she is eligible for marriage for a 70 year old man

11-

Irrelevant. She is 9. Biologically, her brain is not fully developed.

What do you know about her persona ?

12 - When you speak about historic people in particular please support it with evidence and don't deduce conclusions

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

1- I didn't suppose anything according to information handed by historians people got confused about her age that doesn't mean that If she had period at the age of nine I will object .

2-

The grown up MAN Muhammad saw a SIX YEAR OLD baby

" https://www.verywell.com/child-developm ... old-620733 " this what I got on google after searching your term

Now I hope you learn some biology to know that a baby is different than child and than teenager

and wanted to marry her.

Do you have any thing to support your claim ?
1- He was offered the thing since his first wife died and since he wanted to have a great bond with his friend and totally not because he chose her
2- She accepted the marriage and she was happy and she wasn't forced by any one including her father

. He asked ALLAH when he could have sex with the child and he did so when she was NINE.A BAD EXAMPLE - for if some devout person did today what Muhamad did, then they would go to prison. A PROPHET' should be above the low morality of his time.

1- If she was a child god could have told him its immoral and what you have actually missed she was engaged before the marriage of prophet Muhammed ( PBUH )
2- He asked god to show people the proper time for marriage for each of the prophet Mohamed's ( PBUH ) wives a different situation happened to show people what to do and what is acceptable to do and not to enjoy the women at that time as bags of sex like many do in your country today " since you have no knowledge about it please read about the topic then we can discuss in a new post "

YOU SAY:

"Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults"

Then a six-year-old could not consent. You are trying to defend the indefensible.

As I have explained in the previous post that the main sign for a female to be ready for marriage "at least " in Islam is to have period first ,that means that if she had period at that time " Which is what happened already BEFORE MARRIEGE" I have no problem with even my daughters to get married after they get period

Incidentally you go on about adultery - it is just misbehaviour. Does it merit death, do you think?

1- I wanted to compare the premarital sex to marriage and as far I have seen on the internet you have different meaning
2-What you speak about is a total new topic for adultery and premarital sex penalty > Rules of the forum make a new post

[marco]

1- I didn't suppose anything according to information handed by historians people got confused about her age that doesn't mean that If she had period at the age of nine I will object

Well we disagree then. I think a nine year old child is being raped by a forty year old man in this case.

Now I hope you learn some biology to know that a baby is different than child and than teenager

I am ever willing to learn how to use English. Look up the word hyperbole and you will see I used the term "baby" to emphasise the child's innocence.

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI :narrated by Aisha:
" The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). "

Narrated by Hisham's father:
" Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

1- He was offered the thing since his first wife died and since he wanted to have a great bond with his friend and totally not because he chose her
2- She accepted the marriage and she was happy and she wasn't forced by any one including her father

His wife had died three years earlier. How does giving a 6-year old child to him make sense? She did NOT "accept" because she did not possess the maturity to accept.

1- If she was a child god could have told him its immoral and what you have actually missed she was engaged before the marriage of prophet Muhammed ( PBUH )
2- He asked god to show people the proper time for marriage for each of the prophet Mohamed's ( PBUH ) wives a different situation happened to show people what to do and what is acceptable to do and not to enjoy the women at that time as bags of sex like many do in your country today " since you have no knowledge about it please read about the topic then we can discuss in a new post "

I see. Well if God says you can rape a little girl it MUST be right.

As I have explained in the previous post that the main sign for a female to be ready for marriage "at least " in Islam is to have period first, that means that if she had period at that time " Which is what happened already BEFORE MARRIEGE" I have no problem with even my daughters to get married after they get period

We live on different planets, then. A little girl would be given in marriage by her father - and you say there is no male domination. Your entire argument is indicative of male domination. There are some biological disorders that cause early puberty. A child of 5 is the earliest on record for bearing a child. According to you she would be of marriageable age. When does common sense overrule religious superstition?

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 33 by marco]

Well we disagree then. I think a nine year old child is being raped by a forty year old man in this case.

Its only thoughts of your own desire nothing more

I am ever willing to learn how to use English. Look up the word hyperbole and you will see I used the term "baby" to emphasise the child's innocence.

Hope you can read you own words before posting its only to emphasize yet we speak about actual things so emphasizing will actually be against you

I am ever willing to learn how to use English. Look up the word hyperbole and you will see I used the term "baby" to emphasise the child's innocence.

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI :narrated by Aisha:
" The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). "

Narrated by Hisham's father:
" Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

I replied

In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19 it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was non had record of births all were estimates at that time

His wife had died three years earlier. How does giving a 6-year old child to him make sense? She did NOT "accept" because she did not possess the maturity to accept.
I see. Well if God says you can rape a little girl it MUST be right.

And you said she was 9 and also said that god told my prophet to wait for her period and now you say she was 6 and he raped her now you say he married her at 9 what you are trying to do here ? I'm clear and always will be clear any girl that reaches maturity and get her first period is allowed to marriage biologically and emotionally and psychologically .. looking at your child as not mature enough is not something to keep insist on according to biology a girl get her first period after 2 years of puberty now you want to debate science please I'm no scientist

We live on different planets, then. A little girl would be given in marriage by her father - and you say there is no male domination. Your entire argument is indicative of male domination. There are some biological disorders that cause early puberty. A child of 5 is the earliest on record for bearing a child. According to you she would be of marriageable age. When does common sense overrule religious superstition?

As I can see you are repeating yourself with no progress I have already replied to every thing you are saying in the last 2 posts you got some thing new I'm happy to reply at any time

[marco]

[Replying to post 33 by marco]

Well we disagree then. I think a nine year old child is being raped by a forty year old man in this case.

Its only thoughts of your own desire nothing more

This is a disgusting comment to make.

You have entertained me long enough with your enlightened views on grown men having sex with little children, claiming that a child who has had a first period is fit for marriage and adult intercourse. I already told you that some children, due to biological malfunction, reach puberty much earlier than 8.

I thought we had moved from 7th century views but obviously we haven't. I shall leave others to communicate with you.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 29 by KenRU]

1- Well you have to excuse my forgein culture according to what I have learned the word in Arabic matchs the word in English the meaning should have been the same but no problem

No apology necessary. You speak a second language far better than I (I know a little Spanish). My hats off to you.

2- If " Premarital sex " Is a good thing according to your culture

Whether premarital sex is a good thing or not varies from person to person. It is a very personal thing. Opinions and cultural positions on this subject will vary – as it should be for a PERSONAL choice.

then you have changed women to be " whores "

I have done no such thing, and the term “whore� is solely your opinion and will be valued as such. You do not speak for anyone here but yourself.

where they can have sex with any partner and with no restrictions

Why shouldn’t the woman decide her own restrictions? Who are you to say what is wrong or right in this instance?

and changed men to be lust seekers

Most men have sex drives, mms. It is how we act on them that matters.

as they can go to strip club and pick what ever woman they want and change them one by one

Change them? What on earth are you talking about?

then you speak about morality and how ancient people were barbaric!

Um, yes. You seem to be making my argument for me, thank you very much. Yes, I agree it is far more moral for two consenting adults to engage in pre-marital sex than for a 9 year old to have sex with a middle aged man. Do you disagree?

Well for me ancient people had more morals than you

Let’s test that theory shall we? Do I own a slave? No. Do I subjugate women? No. Do I beat my kid? No. Have I ever killed someone? No. Do I pass judgement upon people for not believing in the wrong superstitious deity? No.

Sorry, I’m not buying what you are selling here.

they used to cover their bodies

Why?

and they used not to have premarital sex

Why is this a bad thing, in your opinion?

and they have considered it as a shame to be done

And this was told to them by men. Shocker.

3- I guess I will need to make a whole new topic about premarital sex

Go for it.

4- Well you have missed the point that that was a norm that time " I like the thats in this sentence "

Not sure what you mean here.

5- You don't have to be afraid its the truth at ancient times girls of high class were protected from premarital sex and it was considered to be a nasty thing that the rest of women do and up till now in my society the one who does premarital sex is considered as unchaste woman and according to my religion she is punishable after 4 have to witness that they saw her do it and only the governor of the country is to decide to apply the punishment

You say this as if it’s a good thing. But this doesn’t apply to men. Another shocker. I’m hoping you see the inherent favoritism in what you wrote.

6- Well its totally clear that a child is any human who didn't have puberty a teen is the child who already became physically mature . According to statistics the puberty age is around 17 for girls so logically you will have hard time finding a fertile 13 year old " teen " and I have to tell you that youth would be suitable for 19 year old girl

You’re just making things up now. Puberty starts well below 17. You are dangerously and woefully misinformed.

7- http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... -a-work-in...
I have searched for the word children and I found 0 maybe you should consult scientists on when a child become a teenager

Holy denial, Batman! You think a child’s frontal lobe develops, but then as a teen, un-develops, and then as an adult redevelops?

Siiiiiiigh.

From this post I can understand that " Teenagers " are better lovers than adults since they will emotionally stay together to face hard life issues while adults would choose divorce according to their logic
Pretty interesting

You just continue to make things up. If you would like to address the science of the article that shows you how children’s brains are not fully developed, I’m game.

Otherwise, I see no point in continuing.

8- I guess you need some information about puberty
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/puberty/Page ... signs.aspx

Thanks for sending me a link that shows you how wrong you are:

Your article: “The average age for girls to begin puberty is 11, while for boys the average age is 12�
Your comment about puberty: “According to statistics the puberty age is around 17 for girls�

I rest my case, you honor.

Puberty is when a child’s body begins to develop and change as they become an adult.

Yes, it is a process that begins at age 11 for girls. They don’t wake up one morning and BAM puberty came and went.

After a year or so of puberty beginning, and for the next couple of years:
•Girls' breasts continue to grow and become fuller.
•Around two years after beginning puberty, girls usually have their first period. Read more about starting periods.

Now you seem to acknowledge that puberty takes time. Good. Acknowledge that it starts at an early age, and also acknowledge that the brain, like the rest of the body, is also developing.

As you can read puberty totally means the start of process for the body to become adult has started

We agree. Do you agree it starts at 11 for girls (usually)?

at 7th century Arabia the only sign for a girl to be mature is her period .

And now, in 2016, we know more than the people of the 7th century.

ESPECIALLY BIOLOGY. It would be unwise to think otherwise.

9- I'm not backpedalling I'm replying Marco's claim that she was 9 please I'm speaking very simple English

Ok, I’ll let Marco discuss this with you. Apologies.

10 - If they were at any time 9 year old considered to be consenting adult biologically she is eligible for marriage for a 70 year old man

And do we agree this is a bad thing?

11-

Irrelevant. She is 9. Biologically, her brain is not fully developed.

What do you know about her persona ?

Irrelevant. Are you going to argue that this 9 year old’s biology works differently than the rest of the human race? She is 9.

12 - When you speak about historic people in particular please support it with evidence and don't deduce conclusions

My evidence? Biology. Your evidence that the biology of a 9 year old in the 7th century was different than most other 9 year olds?

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 36 by KenRU]

First I owe you an apologize you and Marco as I went back reading my posts I found that my manners wasn't on line and you are elder than me and I owe you respect even if you scold me so I hope you both forgive me maybe I got over-excited

Now I will try to stick to the topic as much as possible and I will try to reply all your concerns fairly

Second Let's agree to some points so we can have a great portion of understanding each other :

1- Nobody can claim he has the accurate age of Aisha when she got married
2- Having " saheh bukhari " as evidence is not wrong but if you take part you take all this means If you want to take the evidence of some one then you accept to all the points that some one says
3- Aisha had her first period before marriage " which makes her half way adult " as period takes place after the start of puberty by two years and puberty in general takes almost 4 years to convert from teen to adult
according to this site http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/puberty/Page ... signs.aspx

Third I need to thank for your complement and I consider it as honor

Forth : I can notice you have found the point I left to draw your attention puberty starts at 8 to 11 normally so a child is developed to be a teen after the age of 8 to 11 and become adult just after 4 years with fully developed organs that means at 12 to 15 that means 12 year old girl in our conception can be adult from biology viewpoint with fully developed body organs

Fifth : There are still currently six U.S. states where girls can get married under the age of 16 with parental consent.
according to this site http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/05/1 ... /21424513/

Sixth : As far as I can see being a teen married to old man in your culture is bad while having sex with any partner before marriage is ok well this is some what strange
I mean if an old man had sex with teen while he wasn't married it would be ok for you but he marries her it will be bad can't know why


Conclusion :

1- A girl become fully adult at the age from 12 to 16 normally .. very few girls become adults at the age of 11 and rarely as hell girls become mature at the age of 9 and 10
( Based on biology )

2- Each nation got its morals and what is accepted and what is not accepted in Arabia its always accepted for girls to marry at the age of 13 14 15 and so on
In US and Europe it was accepted for girls to marry at very young age then it was banned gradually and still there is some states allow it with conditions

3- A lot of girls still become sexually active at very young age and if not properly contained they may choose to be unchaste as easy way money

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 36 by KenRU]

First I owe you an apologize you and Marco as I went back reading my posts I found that my manners wasn't on line and you are elder than me and I owe you respect even if you scold me so I hope you both forgive me maybe I got over-excited

No apologies necessary. Heat of battle and all : )

Also, age has nothing to do with civility in my book. EVERYONE deserves a measure of respect.

Now I will try to stick to the topic as much as possible and I will try to reply all your concerns fairly

Second Let's agree to some points so we can have a great portion of understanding each other :

1- Nobody can claim he has the accurate age of Aisha when she got married

I agree that the age is debatable.

2- Having " saheh bukhari " as evidence is not wrong but if you take part you take all this means If you want to take the evidence of some one then you accept to all the points that some one says

I disagree. Just because one source I cite says her age is one thing, doesn’t mean I have to agree with unrelated points.

3- Aisha had her first period before marriage " which makes her half way adult "

Subjective and most importantly, meaningless. What does that even mean, in terms of emotional and biological maturity?

as period takes place after the start of puberty by two years and puberty in general takes almost 4 years to convert from teen to adult
according to this site http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/puberty/Page ... signs.aspx

Define adult for me, so I know we are on the same page.

Third I need to thank for your complement and I consider it as honor

Credit is given where credit is due. You are welcome.

Forth : I can notice you have found the point I left to draw your attention puberty starts at 8 to 11 normally so a child is developed to be a teen after the age of 8 to 11

No. A teen is someone who is 13-19 Thir�teen� to nine�teen�. Get it? If someone is 11 and gets their period, they are still not a teenager. BY DEFINITION.

and become adult just after 4 years with fully developed organs that means at 12 to 15 that means 12 year old girl in our conception can be adult from biology viewpoint with fully developed body organs

No. Emphatically no. Just because a young girl has her period, does not mean that she is an adult or is able to make adult decisions! Her brain is a separate organ and develops at a different rate. Good grief man. Allow me to highlight this point for emphasis: Don’t you think that in order for a child to be consider mature enough to make adult decisions they need to develop more than just their reproductive parts? For example, their Frontal Lobe?

Fifth : There are still currently six U.S. states where girls can get married under the age of 16 with parental consent.
according to this site http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/05/1 ... /21424513/

I find that a bad idea as well. As you can see, I am consistant.

Sixth : As far as I can see being a teen married to old man in your culture is bad while having sex with any partner before marriage is ok

The taboo of premarital sex varies from person to person, as I said before. It is not a culturally black or white issue here.

well this is some what strange

No, it is only strange because you are blurring the line of what you think the world adult, child and teen mean.
A 19 year old, is free to have sex with whomever they want. In general, they are much more mature than a 13 year old.
You cannot equate the notion of a 13 year old having sex with a middle aged man with a 19 year old doing the same. THEY ARE NOT. When you say Teen, that is what you are doing.

Be specific, so we can further the argument.

I mean if an old man had sex with teen while he wasn't married it would be ok for you but he marries her it will be bad can't know why

You are confused. If the older man had sex with a 19 year old, it is of no consequence to me. The 19 year old has matured (biologically and emotionally) enough to make their own decisions. A 13 year old HAS NOT. Both are teens. Hopefully, that clears it up for you.

Conclusion :

1- A girl become fully adult at the age from 12 to 16 normally

No. She is not an adult. She may be able to reproduce, but her brain may not be, and probably is not, fully developed. That is a huge and important issue in my book. Why isn’t it yours?

.. very few girls become adults at the age of 11 and rarely as hell girls become mature at the age of 9 and 10 ( Based on biology )

Let’s be clear, you say mature, and all you really mean is that they are able to have sex and reproduce.

You do know there are other aspects to their humanity right? Does it matter to you if they are not “mature�, “adult� or "developed" enough mentally? Emotionally?

How much (if at all) does that factor into your moral compass?

2- Each nation got its morals and what is accepted and what is not accepted in Arabia

False.

its always accepted for girls to marry at the age of 13 14 15 and so on

Regardless – we know more now than then. Shouldn’t we use our knowledge now to better society? Now that you know that teenagers brains are not developed enough for emotional decisions (and what is marriage and sex if not an emotional situation), shouldn’t that factor into our decision making process? They didn’t know a blessed thing about this then. Should we just ignore this data, just because Arabia knew nothing about it?

In US and Europe it was accepted for girls to marry at very young age then it was banned gradually and still there is some states allow it with conditions

Yes, because we know more now. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

3- A lot of girls still become sexually active at very young age and if not properly contained they may choose to be unchaste as easy way money

Yes, this is true, but this is a parenting and/or education issue. Not an argument to allow girls to marry at ages 9-11.

-all the best

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 38 by KenRU]

Now I have seen what exactly what we are debating actually the definitions of teen and adult then the age of each and the development of body

According to biological sites
a child become a teenage at the age of 11 to 14 when we speak about special growth rates we actually mean they will develop what others will take more time to do earlier than any one in this case a girl could turn to be a teen at the age of 8 to 11 and again its very rare we are speaking about a very rare issue and may take 4 to 5 years and turn to be adult in this case from 12 to 15 and achieve all the emotional and physical development we are discussing extreme thing that's rare to happen nowdays

............

Each nation got its own rights or wrong morals and I can give drinking and gambling as an example

at the bible " 4 Listen, Lemuel. Kings should not drink wine or have a craving for alcohol. 5 When they drink, they forget the laws and ignore the rights of people in need. 6 Alcohol is for people who are dying, for those who are in misery. 7 Let them drink and forget their poverty and unhappiness."

yet its totally banned for any Islamic society now can you tell me is drinking wine is moral or immoral ?

every single point we will be discussing will be subject to our cultures at the 60s sex revolution took place and at the Islamic society they kept there cultures we have some clear morals deduced from Quran and our prophet

being you agree or disagree it will be either my or your choice based on your current culture but I can say that at any point once a girl become physically mature she becomes also emotionally mature to decide what's right and what's wrong based on biological sites
And the last thing I would say that men become wisest at the age of 40 that doesn't mean a man should wait to be 40 to be a CEO or become a president

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 22 by KenRU]

As I have seen you seem to get adultery concept the wrong way ..
Adultery is any sexual relationship between any unmarried two partners ...

Absolutely not. You can only be guilty of adultery if you are a married person.

Sexual relations between two unmarried people would be "fornication" if we go by the bible.

That means any boyfriend and girlfriend are actually committing adultery

So no marriage necessary for adultery to exist

Only if you consider boyfriends and girlfriends to be married. Legally that is not the case.

Being adultery moral or immoral some thing was based on religion on first place , a simple example is if your girlfriend cheats on you would you call he adulterous ?

Of course not! Those who understand English and English definitions would not consider it adultery. They would most likely refer to it as "cheating".

Sexual intercourse at young age will forever exist if the "mode"(statistical term) for the age to have sex is almost 17 then half of the nation had sex before the age of 17
now can you control it and stop it ? with all the laws passed still they do it at the age of 13 because they are physically mature and once they are physically mature they get " desire " don't tell me that the list above failed to raise a generation they could do it with no hard time

16 or 17 is generally considered the legal age for sex AND the legal age for getting married. Anything under that is illegal in the civilised world. Anything under that is either statutory rape and/or paedophilia.

Children having sex with each other is something different again. However in no way should marriage be entered into just because they are having sex. That would be ridiculous. Marriage should not be entered into that lightly.

The miss-conception of adultery can lead to allowing sex between brothers and sisters now marco since you believe in nothing tell me how moral is that ?

This is called Incest. It is either considered illegal or highly immoral. I know of no civilised culture who would indorse incest, except for perhaps in the old testament of the bible.

According to my religion once a child physically mature he/she is a responsible person

That is all the more reason to reject your religion as it is not the case in reality. A body may be mature, but the mind is not. The mind and body are two different things. You don't just suddenly become responsible when your body is old enough for sex, as proven by the fact that teenagers go and have reckless sex and end up with deseases and unwanted pregnancies.

Your religion is always going to remain reviled if it continues to adopt these attitudes.