Hey Christians... What's up with the whole OT thing?

[tryme]

Well. In my experience, most Christians haven't even read the Bible, let alone the old testament which has some clearly heinous laws and practices accepted to be immoral and illogical by the most sound-minded people, including Christians. Many have left Christianity after actually reading the Bible in its entirety (including me).

My favorites are:
1. God commanding children to be stoned for disobedience
2. God commanding babies to be dashed against rocks
3. God commanding virgins to be kidnapped and raped
4. Punishing the victim
5. Polygamy
6. if anyone actually reads this post I am happy grow the list ad naseam

So here are my direct questions, besides any other comments you may have:
1. Do you think these OT acts and commands were moral before Jesus came?
2. How do you rectify the fact that Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not a single stroke of the law will disappear" ?
3. Have you ever read the Old Testament?

[tryme]

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[tryme]

1. If someone is killed, they are automatically guilty, because the fact that they were killed by another person is proof of their guilt of wrongdoing?

People are considered guilty by the fact of their birth. This is reinforced by the fact of their death, even after along and happy life.

2. It is ok to kill other people as punishment for wrong doing?

No...it is ok for a righteous judge to kill those guilty of wrong, not another sinner.

3. Christ died on behalf of other people, so that these people would nto have to die for their wrongdoing?

Weird - it sound like you think Christians expect to see the ones who are saved to be walking around without any death...? The death they are saved from is eternal death in the outer darkness, not human death. Human death comes to all humans, indicating all humans are sinners.

Only guilty sinners suffer and die.
No innocent suffers and dies, except Christ.

right right I get the whole humans die a natural death b/c of sin, sure but you're talking about murder, one human killing another, so forgetting all the innocence discussion, let's talk about that first quote response...

who then, amongst humanity, is a righeous judge and able to determine a righteous death of anothe rhuman being, given Ecclesiates 7:20, which you yourself referred to?

[tryme]

[Replying to post 17 by Wootah]

that's cool, quite frankly I get how people can have so strong feelings. sure. BUUUUUUT you never answered my prior question - is psalms a rage journal for some pissed off dude, or is it god breathed divine words? cuz it sounds to me like you're saying this dude was just pissed, and writing some stuff down some hyperbolic stuff he never intended himself or anyone else to do

[tryme]

verses that either order or condone violence against Innocents.

Do you not realize that most Christians believe we are not born innocent but are sinners (guilty of evil) at the time of our birth as per Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; If they are guilty then any judgement on them by a proper judge is righteous. The wages of sin is death so someone dieing proves their sin and babies die...everyone dies, indicating only sinners are born here as humans. Except Christ who died for the sin of others.

Therefore this violence against innocents must refer to some other religion or is a straw man argument.

ok, tell me ONE THING that a newborn infant has done that is immoral, sinful, wrong, whatever. The moment it breathes its first breath, what error has it committed? Who did he/she harm? What foul thought, without the cpacity for language, did he/she have? Not what did his ancestors do, but what did this individual do that takes away his/her innocence?

[tryme]

[Replying to post 3 by tryme]

Please do. But let's resolve one issue at a time.

this page is getting to be too broad of a discussion, so I will make a separate post for each issue I listed initially. Here is the first one. Would love for you to contribute.

viewtopic.php?p=859928#859928

[ttruscott]

right right I get the whole humans die a natural death b/c of sin, sure but you're talking about murder, one human killing another,

No I am not. I said a righteous judge and there is only one, GOD.


so forgetting all the innocence discussion, let's talk about that first quote response...

who then, amongst humanity, is a righeous judge and able to determine a righteous death of anothe rhuman being,

GOD.

[ttruscott]

verses that either order or condone violence against Innocents.

Do you not realize that most Christians believe we are not born innocent but are sinners (guilty of evil) at the time of our birth as per Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; If they are guilty then any judgement on them by a proper judge is righteous. The wages of sin is death so someone dieing proves their sin and babies die...everyone dies, indicating only sinners are born here as humans. Except Christ who died for the sin of others.

Therefore this violence against innocents must refer to some other religion or is a straw man argument.

ok, tell me ONE THING that a newborn infant has done that is immoral, sinful, wrong, whatever. The moment it breathes its first breath, what error has it committed? Who did he/she harm? What foul thought, without the cpacity for language, did he/she have? Not what did his ancestors do, but what did this individual do that takes away his/her innocence?

This infant, before it was born, lived in Sheol where it was created and either rejected YHWH as his GOD or rejected HIS plan for the judgement of those who rejected HIM as their GOD.

After becoming a sinner by one of these free will decisions, this person was sown into the world to be human to be redeemed or to be the bad example that helps others to be redeemed.

And as sinners Jacob and Esau as infants in the womb were trying to kill each other by crushing each other to pieces (which is what the Hebrew means, not jostle nor struggle) with murderous intent!

Your questions all reflect the idea that we are created on earth but the Bible says we are born sinners. It is a blasphemy to think GOD created evil so our becoming sinners had to be before we were born, by our own free will decision.

[zjsd26]

I agree that when a person first reads the bible, it can be immortal or just plain foolish. I had a lot of troubles, getting into the word, based on God's foul justice that he caused on his people. However, once I got more into the Bible and the correct context, it does make sense. You first have to read the whole chapter, and make sure you are reading in the correct matter. Immortal and God can't mix, because God is all moral. The one who structures our universe. Everything has to happen for a cause, either good or bad. So we have to be their to observe what was going on. God made rules that were passed down to everybody, so by their own choices made God angry. It takes a lot to make God mad, so they could of done more than you bargain for.

[peterk]

So here are my direct questions, besides any other comments you may have:
1. Do you think these OT acts and commands were moral before Jesus came?
2. How do you rectify the fact that Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not a single stroke of the law will disappear" ?
3. Have you ever read the Old Testament?

My personal answers would be:
1. It depends. I am comfortable affirming the Bible, both OT and NT, as an authoritative record of God's dealings with his people. But that doesn't mean everything God's people did was approved by God. We would have to look at the issues on a case by case basis.

2. Rectify? That means to correct. If that's what you meant, I don't think Jesus' words need correcting. They are what they are. But if you meant "explain", I think the basic idea is that Jesus fulfils the law by his perfect sacrificial life.

3. Yes.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 17 by Wootah]

that's cool, quite frankly I get how people can have so strong feelings. sure. BUUUUUUT you never answered my prior question - is psalms a rage journal for some pissed off dude, or is it god breathed divine words? cuz it sounds to me like you're saying this dude was just pissed, and writing some stuff down some hyperbolic stuff he never intended himself or anyone else to do

Psalms are music. They were originally poetry(as song lyrics) and are arranged as phrose for us to read. If you get a copy of the JPS Tanakh, it gives the musical instructions. With that in mind, I see some of them more of emotional release and reaction. David wrote most of them. He was a virtuoso musician, if we believe the story. He actually played a chord that pleased the Lord as the story goes.

I know this is an old thread.