Hey Christians... What's up with the whole OT thing?

tryme · Post by **tryme** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:29 pm

Well. In my experience, most Christians haven't even read the Bible, let alone the old testament which has some clearly heinous laws and practices accepted to be immoral and illogical by the most sound-minded people, including Christians. Many have left Christianity after actually reading the Bible in its entirety (including me).

My favorites are:
1. God commanding children to be stoned for disobedience
2. God commanding babies to be dashed against rocks
3. God commanding virgins to be kidnapped and raped
4. Punishing the victim
5. Polygamy
6. if anyone actually reads this post I am happy grow the list ad naseam

So here are my direct questions, besides any other comments you may have:
1. Do you think these OT acts and commands were moral before Jesus came?
2. How do you rectify the fact that Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Not a single stroke of the law will disappear" ?
3. Have you ever read the Old Testament?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:27 pm

tryme wrote: verses that either order or condone violence against Innocents.

Do you not realize that most Christians believe we are not born innocent but are sinners (guilty of evil) at the time of our birth as per Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; If they are guilty then any judgement on them by a proper judge is righteous. The wages of sin is death so someone dieing proves their sin and babies die...everyone dies, indicating only sinners are born here as humans. Except Christ who died for the sin of others.

Therefore this violence against innocents must refer to some other religion or is a straw man argument.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:43 pm

tryme wrote: Such a thought would never and has never even occurred to me despite the many egregious offenses I've endured.

IF the baby is only new to the earth as a human but is actually a 6000+ year old demon and the most righteous Judge has declared his time as human should end, would you let him live? I'm not talking about appearances but the reality of this being a demon.

That is, given as accepted:
- we know it is a demon in human form
- we know who GOD is and what HE wants us to do

Do we then follow GOD or do we reject all this because it appears so wrong when looking at a baby?

tryme · Post by **tryme** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:05 pm

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 7 by tryme]

Would a 'holy or righteous person' omit how they felt or not? What should they write about? Wouldn't it be far worse if he wrote after the Babylonians murderd my family I just wanted to help raise their children.

And as the bible also says : who is good, there are none.

All scripture is believed to be a god breathed but most of those holy men in the bible committed a lot of wicked sins as well.

I don't know what a holy person would write about as I don't claim to be one. But I would have the expectation that someone that was "set apart" was not a person that would find pleasure in the idea of innocent babies being dashed against rocks.

And sure, why not raise the baby? Would it not it be more merciful and loving and wise to take an innocent baby and raise it in the ways of righteousness, and teaching it to be an instrument of God's good in the world, instead of just killing it?

And if you're just saying this is about a dude venting, that's one thing. But If he is just venting, then how is this God breathed wisdom literature and not just a dude writing in his rage journal?

And if someone is holy but still commits a ton of wicked deeds, then what makes them holy? How are they not just another human being with the propensity for both helpful and hurtful deeds?

tryme · Post by **tryme** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:11 pm

ttruscott wrote:
tryme wrote: verses that either order or condone violence against Innocents.

Do you not realize that most Christians believe we are not born innocent but are sinners (guilty of evil) at the time of our birth as per Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; If they are guilty then any judgement on them by a proper judge is righteous. The wages of sin is death so someone dieing proves their sin and babies die...everyone dies, indicating only sinners are born here as humans. Except Christ who died for the sin of others.

Therefore this violence against innocents must refer to some other religion or is a straw man argument.

so let me get this clear. Just answer yes or no to each number, and clarify where I don't understand if your answer is no:

1. If someone is killed, they are automatically guilty, because the fact that they were killed by another person is proof of their guilt of wrongdoing?
2. It is ok to kill other people as punishment for wrong doing?
3. Christ died on behalf of other people, so that these people would nto have to die for their wrongdoing?

tryme · Post by **tryme** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:14 pm

ttruscott wrote:
tryme wrote: Such a thought would never and has never even occurred to me despite the many egregious offenses I've endured.
IF the baby is only new to the earth as a human but is actually a 6000+ year old demon and the most righteous Judge has declared his time as human should end, would you let him live? I'm not talking about appearances but the reality of this being a demon.

That is, given as accepted:
- we know it is a demon in human form
- we know who GOD is and what HE wants us to do

Do we then follow GOD or do we reject all this because it appears so wrong when looking at a baby?

yeah, if re-incarnated Demons existed and there was a God that was not capable of destroying his own creation by his own means which left him dependent upon a human to destroy this evil baby, and it was irrefutable that this was in fact such a creature? sure. kill it. But what relevance does any of this have to do with the conversation?

tryme · Post by **tryme** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:18 pm

ttruscott wrote:
tryme wrote: verses that either order or condone violence against Innocents.

Do you not realize that most Christians believe we are not born innocent but are sinners (guilty of evil) at the time of our birth as per Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
Therefore this violence against innocents must refer to some other religion or is a straw man argument.

Do you not realize that I have read every single letter of the Bible and was myself a born again Christian?

This started with the discussion about killing a baby as revenge, killing a creature that itself was not guilty of the original trespass against the person seeking revenge; thus, an innocent baby in regard to the specific scenario and original offense.

You are moving on to an entirely different subject, which is called "original sin." I get that concept, and I would be happy to debate that as well, but not on this post. Start a new post and send me the link.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:52 pm

tryme wrote:And if someone is holy but still commits a ton of wicked deeds, then what makes them holy?

Holy means dedicated to GOD's use and there are degrees of holiness in our commitment to GOD.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:07 pm

tryme wrote:1. If someone is killed, they are automatically guilty, because the fact that they were killed by another person is proof of their guilt of wrongdoing?

People are considered guilty by the fact of their birth. This is reinforced by the fact of their death, even after along and happy life.

2. It is ok to kill other people as punishment for wrong doing?

No...it is ok for a righteous judge to kill those guilty of wrong, not another sinner.

3. Christ died on behalf of other people, so that these people would nto have to die for their wrongdoing?

Weird - it sound like you think Christians expect to see the ones who are saved to be walking around without any death...? The death they are saved from is eternal death in the outer darkness, not human death. Human death comes to all humans, indicating all humans are sinners.

Only guilty sinners suffer and die.
No innocent suffers and dies, except Christ.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:36 am

[Replying to post 11 by tryme]

Well I've never been in the position of having my town destroyed and my family murdered and raped and the remnants carried off into slavery but I bet it hurts. Surely holy men should keep it real. The bible isn't for your sit on a mountain mystic.

I think the desire to dash my enemies babies on the rocks more accurately reflects the reality of the anguish.

Joe1950 · Post by **Joe1950** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:59 pm

The fact that people can try to justify killing infants is pretty much proof that the OT justifies some pretty nasty stuff.

Didn't the Jews drive out the original inhabitants of the "Land Flowing With Milk and Honey"? And commit genocide on the inhabitants?

Read Deuteronomy. It is full of god demanding that the Jews murder other people. Nasty.