A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Aetixintro
Site Supporter
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:18 am
Location: Metropolitan-Oslo, Norway, Europe
Has thanked: 401 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #1

Post by Aetixintro »

There are basically two views on abortions, the pro and the con.

Now, let's say there are heavy reasons for choosing either side. If this is the case then maybe abortion should be allowed? I think abortion should be allowed so that all people who need it may have their abortion and so that all who are fortunate to live lives that allow them to reject abortion.

Let's be clear: the ideal for both sides is that no abortions are carried out because nobody really wants an abortion, to kill a fetus.

So my entry is that the view of sympathy to abortion is to allow abortions and at the same time make good use of the contraception-pills or condoms to accommodate both views as ways of life!

Like it? Your view?

(By this text, I don't list the usual arguments pro- and con-.)
I'm cool! :) - Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Abortion is a Church / State Separation Issue.

Post #51

Post by Bust Nak »

RightReason wrote: Newsflash, most people are not ok with abortion for any reason at any point in a pregnancy. In a December 2017 survey, roughly half of Americans (48%) said having an abortion is morally wrong, while 20% said they think it is morally acceptable.
That's not news, that's why we have limits in place. You are still the minority according to the polls. Not sure where exactly you got "most people" from when the stats says 48%.
I have no idea what you are talking about. What should be enough to show it’s based on religion?
Simple: How we feel about the morality of rape does not correlate to religious views, where as how we feel about the morality of abortion does.
Research shows women regret their abortions and typically feel pressured into getting one. They also often suffer from post abortion depression and guilt.
All the more reasons for you to stop demonising women having abortions as baby killers.
The fetus is not trying to kill the women. The fetus didn’t even ask to exist.
That doesn't change the fact that the right of the fetus stop where the right of the woman start.
Parents have an obligation to the children they bring into this world. A parent would not be permitted to starve their 3 year old, and say, “Well, he was infringing on my rights!�.
That's fine, the rights of a 3 year old trumps that of a parent.
And they need to take responsibility for their actions/behavior.
That much I can agree with, having an abortion is one such way of taking responsibility for their actions/behavior.
If they cannot afford to take care of the child they conceived, or are emotionally unable to, they can arrange for someone else to, but they do not have the right to kill the child.
That depends if by "the child" you mean per or post birth.
Why should the mother have the right to kill an innocent child? All children, planned or unplanned, wanted or not, deserve protection and as human beings deserve the right to life.
Still don't trump the woman's right to an abortion.
I believe you just made my point. So, you don’t get to say, it is wrong that this child has come into existence, so let us get rid of him. It might not be your plan, but now that the child is here, you don’t get to decide if he lives or dies.
But we do have that right, we do get to say, it's not my plan so I am getting an abortion.
Maybe it is wrong for you to be a parent, so put the baby up for adoption –don’t kill the baby because you think his conception was wrong.
Or have an abortion before it become a bigger problem.
We’ll see.
That article you sent me, says the majority of people do not expect the status que to change. How confident are you that the momentum is in your favor?
Studies show Republicans do that more than Democrats – are more generous with their money and give to more charitable organizations that is.
That doesn't excuse voting for Republicans. Social safety nets provide better protection than charitable organizations. You can still be generous with your money and give to more charitable organizations and switch to voting Democrats.
Abortion is oppression of women. They deserve better.
Then tell me why progressive places have more opportunities for women? Or perhaps you are suggesting that women outside of the traditional homemaker role are actually the ones being repressed?
Again, this issue isn’t about religion.
The stats says otherwise. You may argue if there is a causal relation or which is the cause and which is the effort, but there is zero question that this is tired to religion.
It’s a human rights issue.
With your side trying to limit said rights to women.

Daedalus X
Student
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:33 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #52

Post by Daedalus X »

RightReason wrote:This little video points out the absurdity of the position you support:

The absurdity of that position is not upheld by all the presidential candidates, as you can see in this video.


Daedalus X
Student
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:33 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #53

Post by Daedalus X »

RightReason wrote:This little video points out the absurdity of the position you support:

Even modern presidential candidates hold to the birth canal theory of human rights, as you can see in this video.


stevent
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 18, 2021 6:01 pm

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #54

Post by stevent »

I would say it's quite simple. Abortion is murder and it has never been a constitutional right.

https://endabortionnow.com/abortion-is- ... ng-humans/
https://endabortionnow.com/is-abortion- ... nal-right/

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18747
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1719 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #55

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 54:
stevent wrote: I would say it's quite simple.
...
I don't prefer to declare such, as it exposes my inabilty to understand stuff in anything but a simple way.
stevent wrote: Abortion is murder...
Murder is a legal notion regarding homicide. Where abortion has been made legal, it can't then be illegal. I grant many folks'd prefer to see abortion outlawed, thus 'murder'.

stevent wrote: ...and it has never been a constitutional right.
...
Then we should burn the constitution.

I'm for the rights of women to control what goes on in their bodies best they can.

I mean, they hafta birthem, that alone tells me it ain't on me to decide they hafta.
That'll settle it then - folks against abortion declare abortion's wrong, m'kay.


Ladies, I respectfully request y'all put y'all a cork in it, 'til I can convince these folks your body belongs to you, and not to them.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #56

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Aetixintro in post #51]
So my entry is that the view of sympathy to abortion is to allow abortions and at the same time make good use of the contraception-pills or condoms to accommodate both views as ways of life!

What?!?! You mean it's possible in this life to NOT have to be an extremist on any one view point?!? We can meet somewhere in the middle?!?! Do the right and left extremists know about this?!?!

This 'middle ground' as it seems, makes the most sense. But people on either extreme side think they have to have their POV forced on others and that's that. Such is the human nature in today's world, unfortunately.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10543
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 501 times
Been thanked: 1147 times
Contact:

Re:

Post #57

Post by William »

RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:10 pm [Replying to post 9 by William]

RightReason: Why punish the child for the sins of his/her parent?
William: In what way is the child actually 'being punished'? In what way have the parents sinned?
The previous comment was referencing the argument that a woman should be able to abort a child conceived in rape. Rape is the sin. Abortion would be the punishment. I assume you can see how silly that is. Why would you punish the baby for the sins of his father?
Well as silly as that sounds, why would anyone think that The Creator would punish everyone for the sins of Adam? Yet clearly many millions of people do believe just that.
There are children conceived during rape whose mothers and themselves are so grateful that they were not killed yet given the right to life they deserve!!!!
So? You are simply arguing that choices are made based upon personal preferences, which is what abortion is.

Getting back to the religious idea that the sins of the fathers will be passed down through the generations onto the children and grand children of said father, this at least implies that the chance of the child growing up to be like their father means that abortion snips that genetic line thus preventing further sin from occurring through said line.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18747
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1719 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #58

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 56:
nobspeople wrote: ...
This 'middle ground' as it seems, makes the most sense. But people on either extreme side think they have to have their POV forced on others and that's that. Such is the human nature in today's world, unfortunately.
I refer folks back through the thread for full context. I'm gonna try to keep this on topic with the OP, but find myself thinking a broader scope might help.

I caution against notions of 'just accepting' (my term) a middle ground, when the facts of a case may argue otherwise.

When one party has swung so incredibly wrong in one direction, and some folks say such as, "Well, ya know, I can accommodate me some of that", what that middle ground has done is to accommodate at least some of the wrong.

It's not right to try to accommodate folks who are wrong.

Then there's the whole 'slippery slope' deal, as problematic as such predictionarial notions may be. When we accommodate them that're wrong, we risk reinforcing em the notion they were right all along.

So let's now look at the OP:

I'm not gonna name OP* like I normally do, cause I think I'm kinda off the original intent of it, but think my comments do pertain...
OP wrote: There are basically two views on abortions, the pro and the con.
When we confine the argument to just "two views", we risk blinding ourselves to any other views.

What about the woman who chooses her an abortion for reasons we ain't proud of?

Are we so proud to fuss at her for it?

Especially coming from the man side of it, what knowledge, what extra special insight do I have to say a woman was wrong - or right - to choose to have an abortion? Women got them some crazy deals on em. I remember seeing a show one time, where they taught, specifically, for a woman to hold her keys in such a way, she could poke her attacker in they eye. In the parking lot. Of the *!*amned Piggly-Wiggly! (had to cuss just to tell it).

They gotta tote them around a duffel bag full of holy who knows what. They gotta sufferem stuff that'd bring this grown man to cry. They gotta put up with men. And women. I get to just shuffle out to the barn, and be alone.

They gotta make em them a whole, entire human being. They gotta then eat extra, do extra, and hurt extra for their efforts. And that don't even mention the billions of other stuff they do about it.

Then, at the end of it all, they gotta hope they alone can provide for that youngn. They can't just trust God, the angels, the Democrats, or the Republicans will come aswooping in to help.

Abortion is far, far more'n it just a two sided story.

I remember sitting all night with a chick who had her an abortion, that I wasn't even the daddy of, and her suffering her about it. She cried, and cried, and cried, 'til I was set to just fetch on off and find me something else to do.

She didn't just think of it in terms of was she right to do it, or was she wrong to not. She cried and carried on and, and hollered her about the this and that, and the wherefores and whatnots, 'til she eventually just cried her on off to sleep. She exhausted herself in her anguish.

Abortion is far, far more'n just right or wrong.

It's about the misery a woman has to fetch her through, just to get her through to the other side of her decision.

As for me, I don't judge a woman's decision on such a personally, emotionally fraught matter. I don't judge if she was right or wrong, because there's more to it than that. There's a human there, trying to figure her life, and the life and death of another human about it. I just try to hold her hand and comfort her best I can, 'til I see me an opening to ask if she'll fix up some biscuits.

I refer folks to the OP's comments, to better understand OP's thoughts

*I normally name OP as a means to sorta speak directly at em, but here I feel I'm taking the OP beyond its original scope. I don't want folks to think I'm trying to put claims in OPer's mouth.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 819 times

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #59

Post by nobspeople »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 7:46 pm From Post 56:
nobspeople wrote: ...
This 'middle ground' as it seems, makes the most sense. But people on either extreme side think they have to have their POV forced on others and that's that. Such is the human nature in today's world, unfortunately.
I refer folks back through the thread for full context. I'm gonna try to keep this on topic with the OP, but find myself thinking a broader scope might help.

I caution against notions of 'just accepting' (my term) a middle ground, when the facts of a case may argue otherwise.

When one party has swung so incredibly wrong in one direction, and some folks say such as, "Well, ya know, I can accommodate me some of that", what that middle ground has done is to accommodate at least some of the wrong.

It's not right to try to accommodate folks who are wrong.

Then there's the whole 'slippery slope' deal, as problematic as such predictionarial notions may be. When we accommodate them that're wrong, we risk reinforcing em the notion they were right all along.

So let's now look at the OP:

I'm not gonna name OP* like I normally do, cause I think I'm kinda off the original intent of it, but think my comments do pertain...
OP wrote: There are basically two views on abortions, the pro and the con.
When we confine the argument to just "two views", we risk blinding ourselves to any other views.

What about the woman who chooses her an abortion for reasons we ain't proud of?

Are we so proud to fuss at her for it?

Especially coming from the man side of it, what knowledge, what extra special insight do I have to say a woman was wrong - or right - to choose to have an abortion? Women got them some crazy deals on em. I remember seeing a show one time, where they taught, specifically, for a woman to hold her keys in such a way, she could poke her attacker in they eye. In the parking lot. Of the *!*amned Piggly-Wiggly! (had to cuss just to tell it).

They gotta tote them around a duffel bag full of holy who knows what. They gotta sufferem stuff that'd bring this grown man to cry. They gotta put up with men. And women. I get to just shuffle out to the barn, and be alone.

They gotta make em them a whole, entire human being. They gotta then eat extra, do extra, and hurt extra for their efforts. And that don't even mention the billions of other stuff they do about it.

Then, at the end of it all, they gotta hope they alone can provide for that youngn. They can't just trust God, the angels, the Democrats, or the Republicans will come aswooping in to help.

Abortion is far, far more'n it just a two sided story.

I remember sitting all night with a chick who had her an abortion, that I wasn't even the daddy of, and her suffering her about it. She cried, and cried, and cried, 'til I was set to just fetch on off and find me something else to do.

She didn't just think of it in terms of was she right to do it, or was she wrong to not. She cried and carried on and, and hollered her about the this and that, and the wherefores and whatnots, 'til she eventually just cried her on off to sleep. She exhausted herself in her anguish.

Abortion is far, far more'n just right or wrong.

It's about the misery a woman has to fetch her through, just to get her through to the other side of her decision.

As for me, I don't judge a woman's decision on such a personally, emotionally fraught matter. I don't judge if she was right or wrong, because there's more to it than that. There's a human there, trying to figure her life, and the life and death of another human about it. I just try to hold her hand and comfort her best I can, 'til I see me an opening to ask if she'll fix up some biscuits.

I refer folks to the OP's comments, to better understand OP's thoughts

*I normally name OP as a means to sorta speak directly at em, but here I feel I'm taking the OP beyond its original scope. I don't want folks to think I'm trying to put claims in OPer's mouth.
There's really no need to 'accept' and 'middle ground'. It is what it is. Judging (or not) is immaterial as, the ones I know that have had an abortion, don't much care how they're judged by people they don't know nor care about.
This 'middle ground' isn't a 'it's OK for this one, but not for that one', but more of a concept where you don't say 'it's always right or wrong'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18747
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1719 times
Been thanked: 1163 times

Re: A Refined View on Abortion - The Sympathic Angle

Post #60

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 59:
nobspeople wrote: There's really no need to 'accept' and 'middle ground'. It is what it is. Judging (or not) is immaterial as, the ones I know that have had an abortion, don't much care how they're judged by people they don't know nor care about.
This 'middle ground' isn't a 'it's OK for this one, but not for that one', but more of a concept where you don't say 'it's always right or wrong'.
Thanks for the clarification. I was just kinda on my own little thing there, and sure wasn't trying to stuff words in anyone's mouth. I'm willing to offer any necessary retractions.

But about that...

When we consider the 'middle ground', that is an opinion, or an acceptance of it. As the political pendulum swings to and fro, the middle ground does it some swinging too.

So I'd reject any 'middle ground' that seeks to deny a woman bodily autonomy (as we consult medical professionals and all such as that).

Currently there's attempts underway to so restrict a woman's right to abortion they often won't even know if they need em one, fore they have the chance to think on if they do.

With the anti-choice folks out there, there is little middle ground, cept to hope a rapist doesn't also get parental rights. Twelve years old, by the way.


For me, there's only the side of the woman who has to make the decision. The only middle ground I see there is her right to entertain the opinions of those she seeks to present an opinion.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

Post Reply