Arete, and Virtue Ethics

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:00 pm

So, broadly speaking, the term arete (pronounced a-ree-tee) may be translated from the ancient Greek to mean 'moral excellence', or more simply, just 'virtue'. Many of these ancient Greeks thought that developing arete has a lot to do with the meaning of life.

My questions for the forum are: do you think they were right or wrong? And either way, why so? And how would we know what arete is, and how do we recognise it when we see it?

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:32 am

OK, so no takers yet. Let me put this in another way.

Is it better to be virtuous, or better to have vices?

Specifically, without regard to what may or may not happen in the hereafter, so that possibilities like heaven and hell are discounted and not considered, is it better in this life to avoid vice and pursue virtue, and if so, why so?

Best wishes, 2RM.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:47 am

That's like saying it's good to do good, it's moral to be moral. It close to tautological and doesn't mean much. What actions are good and moral depends on who you ask.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:10 am

Bust Nak wrote: That's like saying it's good to do good, it's moral to be moral. It close to tautological and doesn't mean much. What actions are good and moral depends on who you ask.

Not at all. If you read a little closer, you will discover the underlying questions are: Why is it good to do good? Why is it good to be moral? And just to complicate matters a little: Why are these things good without reference to any kind of alleged afterlife? If I do good or am moral or both, do any advantages accrue to me in this life?

Best wishes, 2RM

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:04 am

2ndRateMind wrote: Why is it good to do good? Why is it good to be moral?

Law of identity - Why is good, good?

Why are these things good without reference to any kind of alleged afterlife?

I don't see what the relevance of afterlife is.

If I do good or am moral or both, do any advantages accrue to me in this life?

Yes, but again, what are the relevance of advantages? Are you suggesting that if there is no advantages then good isn't good?

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:32 am

Good is a matter of subjective opinion.

If I have a house and some nasty people come around purposefully damaging my house and trying to destroy it and I kill them to stop them from destroying my house, have I done a GOOD thing?

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:43 pm

Divine Insight wrote: Good is a matter of subjective opinion.

So, murdering six million Jews, and two million more communists, gypsies, homosexuals and disabled individuals is good just because the Nazis thought it so? Or bad, just because those Jews, etc, thought it so? And how would you decide between these alternatives, in the absence of any objective moral reality?

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Bust Nak wrote:
2ndRateMind wrote: Why is it good to do good? Why is it good to be moral?
Law of identity - Why is good, good?

No, you are missing the point. Why should I do good? Why should I be moral?

Bust Nak wrote:
Why are these things good without reference to any kind of alleged afterlife?
I don't see what the relevance of afterlife is.

Because there are all sorts of people who claim that one is rewarded for virtue with heaven, and punished for vice with hell. I want to know if there is any more immediate reward or punishment, that might persuade an unbeliever.

Bust Nak wrote:
If I do good or am moral or both, do any advantages accrue to me in this life?
Yes, but again, what are the relevance of advantages? Are you suggesting that if there is no advantages then good isn't good?

No, but again, if only disadvantages accrue to good people, that might be a sound reason not to be good. On the other hand, if there are proximate rewards for virtue, that might be a sound reason to be good.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Post by **Tcg** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:34 am

2ndRateMind wrote:
No, you are missing the point. Why should I do good? Why should I be moral?

I'd hope you'd do good, because it is good. I'd hope you'd be moral, because it is the moral thing to do.

If you need some payoff for doing good or for being moral, I'd not want to be around you if you ever became dissatisfied with your payoff.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:55 am

2ndRateMind wrote: No, you are missing the point. Why should I do good? Why should I be moral?

You should do good because I want you to. You should be moral because I want you to.

Because there are all sorts of people who claim that one is rewarded for virtue with heaven, and punished for vice with hell. I want to know if there is any more immediate reward or punishment, that might persuade an unbeliever.

I don't need any persuasion, I want to do good, I want to be moral.

No, but again, if only disadvantages accrue to good people, that might be a sound reason not to be good. On the other hand, if there are proximate rewards for virtue, that might be a sound reason to be good.

Goodness is its own reward, any advantages are just bonus. For some it might not be enough, in which case the way to go is to look at persuasion against acting bad and immoral.