Killing in the Bible and Tanakh

[Atef]

Is this killing of children right?

[Atef]

[Replying to post 8 by Tcg]


You're analogy is a great one. What is funny is that you used a � in your analogy. In the case of Noah and the Flood, other innocent animals not on the Ark were killed.

In the killing of the innocent first born of Egypt, God unbelievably and for no rational and just reason (except maybe economic punishment), murders the first born of the cattle ��� � as well. This is ridiculous to me. Whoever wrote these myths were high on something or just not animal lovers, in my opinion.

There are a lot of animal lovers who have pets they love and consider family, I wonder how they would feel if ������ died as a result of collective punishment administered because of something they did.

The cattle in Egypt were not only innocent, but as in the case with Noah and the Flood, not even of the same species as humans.

Exodus 12:29 KJV

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

I did not mention in any detail, the captives or as some differing Bible's refer to as prisoners or slaves, who were already in dire conditions, yet had their first born children and babies killed by God.

[bluethread]

I would even go a step further and assert that there has never been a time on this Earth, where humans have not engaged in violence and murder against other humans.

I am glad that you acknowledge that. That is my point. Why would one expect a theistic social order to be any different?

You apply it to a diety because the genocide and crimes against humanity are committed by the diety or the myth associated with the diety. I believe we are talking about the writings of men. Just because it is believed and assigned to a diety, is not an inoculation or exemption that is warranted or deserved.

Ok, you ae not applying it to a deity, but just saying that theists use their deity to justify killing. Based on your assertion above, non-theists must do the same thing, they just don't use a deity as a justification.

The Geneva Covention is right however:

Let's just apply this to our own families. If myself or you got into a physical altercation with someone, and they sought retribution by killing us, our wife/girlfriend, children, grandchildren, Mother, Father, Uncle, Aunt etc etc...I think that would be wrong. Same thing on a massive level as contained in the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity--no diety exemption.

Ok, that is what you think. However, why do you think that? Is this simply a visceral response, or is there a rational justification?

One does not need the Geneva Covention to define war crimes, terrorism or crimes against humanity; adhering to the principles of respect for life, equal justice, fairness, decency and the old saying " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is all humans need.

There are several principles there. How does "respect for life" work in war? Regarding the other principles, how can one expect those things in war? Wars are because of a conflict in social order. If two parties are not in agreement regarding social order, how can one expect the other to abide by their social order?

Besides some of the worst imperialist and hypocritical countries are associated with the Geneva Convention.

Precisely, the UN human rights council consists of over 20 nations. How can anything be decided that way. In addition, that list includes, Afganistan, Angola, Buruni, Cuba, and Venezuela. Are you kidding?

No truly benevolent, loving and caring supreme diety if one did exist, would engage in violence at all, it is inconsistent with being benevolent, loving and caring. However as you alluded to men will engage in mass violence; and there can be a strong argument that no society has claim to being violence free--or of having an unimpeachable upright moral compass.

If you mean omnibenevolent, omniloving and omni caring, you are correct. I don't believe in such a deity. That said, the most nonviolent, civil societies in the world have come out of the Judeo/Christian tradition.

Answer to your question is No. Here is just one example of a major biological error in the Bible: Jesus as he was about to asscend into heaven told his believers and those who were baptized in his name, that they could drink poison and take up deadly snakes and nothing would happen to them. That is biologically not true.

In fact there are actual laws on the book for making false and misleading statements that lead to the harm or death of someone. Also, as I am sure you know people (preacher snake handlers) have died because they believed that myth of Jesus. Just wondering 🙄 if Jesus did return to Earth could he face charges? 😊

That is kind of a diversion, but you are not correct, scientifically. Poison is in the dosage. Many poisonous substances can be ingested and survived depending on the constitution of the individual. Also, one can survive snakebite, if the snakes venom sac is low, or the venom is removed immediately. That said, I think that the individuals who take that as a command to handle snakes are ignoring the point of the passage. One should not put oneself in danger, just to prove one's piety, whether it be war, taking poisonous substances or mishandling animals.

Yes there is a direct connection in what a person or country believes regarding a mythical religion (and what that religion sanctions)--and what that believing person or country does in real life.

Yes, that is why the most peaceful, prosperous, civilized nations in the world come from the Judeo/Christian tradition.

The Tanakh of Judaism and especially the Bible read like an operational manual with instructions and guidelines for the enslavement of humans and the beating and killing of slaves, including children. Some of the biggest supporters and financial benefactors of slavery in America were found in the pulpit on Sunday and specific denominations like the Catholic Church etc etc etc....

Well, they didn't follow tha manual very well, because, under Torah law, slavery is very difficult, if not impossible. In fact, manslaughter of a slave carries the equivalent of up to a life sentence and the murder of a slave carries the death penalty.

Teaching or indoctrinating slaves into Christianity was used as the moral justification for slavery. Saving the heathen and savage slaves spiritual soul outweighed and excused the physical enslavement.

Had they taught it properly, the slaves would have known that, under Torah law, when they accepted Torah, then they would be free in seven years or less. Are you aware that the abolitionists based their call for freeing the slaves on the Scriptures?

"Manifest Destiny" was the moral divine guidance used in the genocide of Native Americans and taking by force their land.

Where does one find the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in the Scriptures?

[Atef]

You posted:

"Ok, you ae not applying it to a deity, but just saying that theists use their deity to justify killing. Based on your assertion above, non-theists must do the same thing, they just don't use a deity as a justification." 

That would be correct, since I believe all religions/deities are mythological. Just the writings of men attributing their writings to a good/diety.

You posted:

"Ok, that is what you think. However, why do you think that? Is this simply a visceral response, or is there a rational justification?"

It is not what I think. You have it reversed. The violent, deviant and immoral scriptures of Judaism and Christianity are what they are; and simple to understand. You are the one who must provide a rational justification for a God of Christianity and Judaism who's followers believe is real. You need to provide a moral and rational justification for a God who murders innocent humans, children and babies, by the millions.

You posted:

"There are several principles there. How does "respect for life" work in war? Regarding the other principles, how can one expect those things in war? Wars are because of a conflict in social order. If two parties are not in agreement regarding social order, how can one expect the other to abide by their social order?"

The principle is the extreme violence and mass murder associated with the God of Christianity and Judaism, especially violence against innocent children and babies, not a conventional war between humans.

If God is really omnipotent and omnipresent he would not be at war with anyone, because he is in control of everything that happens on Earth. I Samuel 2:6 states: "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."

Yet the following unnecessary killing occurs:

Example I: In the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism the Pharoah ordered the drowning of the male Hebrew babies in the Nile River. This myth makes no sense, because why wouldn't a omnipotent and omnipresent God simply stop the Egyptians from killing the Hebrew male babies in the first place.

Instead, the omnipotent and omnipresent God of Christianity and Judaism allows it to happen, meaning it is really his fault. Then after allowing those innocent Hebrew firstborn children and babies to be murdered, he proceeds to murder even more firstborn children and babies of the Egyptians.

Example II: As cited in my previous post, the God of Christianity and Judaism is responsible for the murder of millions of people, including children and babies. Satan by contrast is associated with killing seven or ten people in the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism (Job 1:1-22).

God enters into what is essentially a bet with 😈 about testing Job's faith, trust and loyalty to God. The God of Christianity and Judaism was a co-conspirator in the death of Job's seven sons for sure--and 3 daughters?

Whether it was seven or ten of Job's children, the omnipotent and omnipresent creator God of Christianity and Judaism could have stopped 😈 but allowed him to commit murder. Which makes God a co-conspirator and really responsible.

Hey! if the God of Christianity and Judaism is really omnipotent and omnipresent; and if Satan and his evil cohorts are real, why doesn't God just kill 👿 and his evil cohorts 😈👹 instead of killing millions of innocent humans, including children and babies?

You posted:

"Precisely, the UN human rights council consists of over 20 nations. How can anything be decided that way. In addition, that list includes, Afganistan, Angola, Buruni, Cuba, and Venezuela. Are you kidding?"

Everyone of the countries you listed have also been the victim of barbaric, brutal and sadistic European and American imperialism, colonization i.e. genocide of millions of native people and the stealing of resources and land.

If you want to start a forum topic on countries that have engaged in imperialism, terrorism, colonization, stealing of natural resources and land, while simultaneously perpetrating mass genocide against more people than any other countries in world history, I will be more than happy to engage you.

To essentially​ repeat the same thing: The God of the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism engages in collective punishment that leads to the death of millions of people including children and babies. The Geneva Convention is right but, no upright moral person needs the Geneva Convention to understand the God and scriptures of the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism that lead to the death of millions of innocent people, especially children and babies, is deviant, immoral, a crime against humanity, terrorism, and genocide.

You posted:

"If you mean omnibenevolent, omniloving and omni caring, you are correct. I don't believe in such a deity. That said, the most nonviolent, civil societies in the world have come out of the Judeo/Christian tradition."

The most barbaric, violent, genocidal, imperialist, colonizing, sadistic, and uncivil, societies in the history of the world, have come from Judeo/Christian tradition. Again if you start the forum topic I will engage you.

You posted:

"Well, they didn't follow tha manual very well, because, under Torah law, slavery is very difficult, if not impossible. In fact, manslaughter of a slave carries the equivalent of up to a life sentence and the murder of a slave carries the death penalty."

The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh of Judaism: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The supposed books written by Moses. What chapter and verse is the "manslaughter, life and death sentence" found in the Torah? I'm always open to learning something new.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... -full-text

"Though the terms "Bible" and "Old Testament" are commonly used by non-Jews to describe Judaism's scriptures, the appropriate term is "Tanach," which is derived as an acronym from the Hebrew letters of its three components: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim."
Torah - Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy

You posted:

"Where does one find the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in the Scriptures?"

Manifest Destiny:

https://www.history.com/topics/manifest-destiny

IMPACT OF MANIFEST DESTINY

INTRODUCTION

"Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, expressed the philosophy that drove 19th-century U.S. territorial expansion. Manifest Destiny held that the United States was destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy me capitalism across the entire North American continent......"

"By the time the Oregon question was settled, the United States had entered into all-out war with Mexico, driven by the spirit of Manifest Destiny and territorial expansion."

"The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ended the Mexican-American War in 1848, added an additional 525,000 square miles of U.S. territory, including all or parts of what is now California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah and Wyoming."

"Despite the lofty idealism of Manifest Destiny, the rapid territorial expansion over the first half of the 19th century resulted not only in war with Mexico, but in the dislocation and brutal mistreatment of Native American, Hispanic and other non-European occupants of the territories now being occupied by the United States

.

[Atef]

[Replying to post 11 by bluethread]

You posted:

"That is kind of a diversion, but you are not correct, scientifically. Poison is in the dosage. Many poisonous substances can be ingested and survived depending on the constitution of the individual. Also, one can survive snakebite, if the snakes venom sac is low, or the venom is removed immediately. That said, I think that the individuals who take that as a command to handle snakes are ignoring the point of the passage. One should not put oneself in danger, just to prove one's piety, whether it be war, taking poisonous substances or mishandling animals."

Read the scriptures of Jesus:

Mark 16: 14-20 states:

14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15. . And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I do know that drinking poison and handling deadly snakes can and has lead to the death of believers of Christianity and Judaism. Not sure what you are talking about with dosages, ingestion, individual constitution etc etc... seems like you are building doors inside of brick walls.

This brings to mind a statement I read about believers of Christianity:

"If a Christian believer were standing in front of a solid brick wall; and the Bible and God said there was a door in that solid brick wall-- Yet everyone kept telling the believer that there was no door in the solid brick wall. The Christian believer would get some 🔨's, tools, door frames, other building equipment; and build a door inside that solid brick wall. Then the believer would turn to the people and say: "See I told you, here is the door the Lord my God said was in this solid brick wall."

In the myth of Jesus, he is the son of God. Well like his father who under the Geneva Convention would be guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity and terrorism. Jesus if he ever returned to Earth because of telling his believers: "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."--could be arrested for:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-20 ... ec1038.htm

18 U.S. Code § 1038 - False information and hoaxes: (a)Criminal Violation.—

(1)In general.—Whoever engages in any conduct with intent to convey false or misleading information under circumstances where such information may reasonably be believed and where such information indicates that an activity has taken, is taking, or will take place that would constitute a violation of chapter 2, 10, 11B, 39, 40, 44, 111, or 113B of this title, section 236 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2284), or section 46502, the second sentence of section 46504, section 46505(b)(3) or (c), section 46506 if homicide or attempted homicide is involved, or section 60123(b) of title 49, shall—(A): be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both; (B): if serious bodily injury results, be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both; and (C): if death results, be fined under this title or imprisoned for any number of years up to life, or both.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/snake-handlin ... d=22551754

"It's estimated that 125 churches in the United States use poisonous snakes during services today, with many clustered in the South. In tiny churches tucked away in rural Appalachia, "snake handling" is a long-standing tradition, one that took root in this region more than a century ago."

"These pastors believe that to "take up serpents" is a form of religious expression. In the King James Bible, Mark 16:18 says, "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them."

"Coots and his followers believe that God calls upon them to handle venomous serpents and to drink other poisons. Even if they are bitten, they will refuse medical treatment because they believe that they are worthy of God's faith, and that their fate is in God's hands."

"But local authorities see these snakes as a reckless, even dangerous menace to public safety. Religious snake handling has been outlawed in most states, including Kentucky and Tennessee. Several snake-handling practitioners across the country have died after being bitten, and there are concerns about the poisonous snakes be ining let loose in communities."

"A Tennessee law banning ownership of poisonous reptiles was passed back in 1947 after five worshippers were killed over two years. Pastor Coots even had a parishioner die in 1995 after she was bit by a rattlesnake during one of his services and refused an anti-venom treatment. No charges were filed in Kentucky

."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/serpent-handl ... d=16459455

"A "serpent-handling" West Virginia pastor died after his rattlesnake bit him during a church ritual, just as the man had apparently watched a snake kill his father years before."

[Atef]

[Replying to post 11 by bluethread]

You posted:

"Had they taught it properly, the slaves would have known that, under Torah law, when they accepted Torah, then they would be free in seven years or less. Are you aware that the abolitionists based their call for freeing the slaves on the Scriptures?"

What are the names and sources of the Jewish slave owners who were teaching slaves about Torah so they could be free after seven years or less?

Where in the Torah does it say African slaves in America could have been freed in seven years or less, if they accepted Torah law? You may want to re-read that particular slave scripture. Third, do you know that there were Hebrew slaves in America who were descendents of the original Hebrews in Africa, who were already Hebrews, yet were never freed?

Fouth, whether a person, especially children and babies are enslaved for one month, one year, six years or for life; Slavery is immoral, violent and deviant.

Below are some Quotes on slavery preceded by actual slave passages in the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism, that read like an operational manual with instructions and guidelines for the enslavement of humans, including the beating and killing of slaves--including children and babies.

Bible and Tanakh of Judaism on Slavery:

Leviticus 25:44–46 states: "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Exodus 21:2–11 states: "If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.......

......And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul;......

......and he shall serve him for ever. And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.......

......And if he had betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."

Exodus 21:20–21 states:
"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

New Testament of the Bible on Slavery:

Colossians 3:22: states: "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;"

Colossians 4:1: states: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Peter 2:18: states: Servants, be subject to your masters with
all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Titus 2:9–10 states: "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but schewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Ephesians 6:5–9 states: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness
of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as me please; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;......

......With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

1 Timothy 6:1–2 states: "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort."

Slavery Quotes:

“Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God, let him go to the Bible. I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation. Slavery existed then in the earliest ages and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments, in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized and sanctioned everywhere.�—Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America

“The delegates of the annual conference are decidedly opposed to modern abolitionism and wholly disclaim any right, wish, or intention to interfere in the civil and political relation between master and slave as it exists in the slave-holding states of the union.�—Methodist Episcopal Church, 1836 General Conference, Cincinnati, Ohio

“It [slavery] has exercised absolute mastery over the American Church. With the Bible in their hands, her priesthood have attempted to prove that slavery came down from God out of
heaven. They have become slaveholders and dealers in human flesh.�—William Lloyd Garrison,
Abolitionist leader

“There was no place in the land where the seeker could not find some small budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land except one, the pulpit. It yielded at last; it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn fight and then did what it always does, joined the procession at the tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery text in the Bible remained; the practice changed; that was all.�—Mark Twain

“Religion can never reform mankind because religion is slavery.�—Robert Ingersol, Abolitionist leader

“I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs.�—Frederick Douglass, Former slave and Abolitionist leader

“We have men sold to build churches, women sold to support the gospel, and babies sold to purchase Bibles for the poor heathen, all for the glory of God and the good of souls. The slave auctioneer’s bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of
the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave trade go hand in hand.�—Frederick Douglass, Former slave and Abolitionist leader

“In all the ages the Roman Church has owned slaves, bought and sold slaves, authorized and encouraged her children to trade in them. There were the texts; there was no mistaking their meaning; she was doing in all this thing what the Bible had mapped out for her to do. So unassailable was her position that in all the centuries she had no word to say against human slavery.�—Mark Twain

“I assert, most unhesitatingly, that the religion of the South is mere covering for the most horrid crimes, a justifier of the most appalling barbarity, a sanctifier of the most hateful frauds, and a dark shelter under which the darkest, foulest, grossest, and most infernal deeds of slaveholders find the strongest protection. Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me. I hate the corrupt slaveholding, woman-whipping, crude-plundering, partial, and hypocritical Christianity of this land.�—Frederick Douglass, Former slave and Abolitionist leader

You are right to the degree that: There were a few religious groups that did not support slavery, like the Mennonites, Amish and Quakers. There were also many individuals who were members of religious denominations that supported slavery, who went against the position of their church.

Thomas Paine the intellectual voice of the American Revolution, the man who wrote the revolutionary pamphlets that sparked and fueled the American Revolution, regarded as the philosophical equivalent to the military genius of George Washington, was one of the only founding fathers to my knowledge, who was openly against slavery and extremely anti-religion.

“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.�--Thomas Paine

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange believe that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditional or invented absurdities, or of downright lies.�—Thomas Paine

“The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed.�—Thomas Paine

[bluethread]

You posted:

"Ok, you ae not applying it to a deity, but just saying that theists use their deity to justify killing. Based on your assertion above, non-theists must do the same thing, they just don't use a deity as a justification." 

That would be correct, since I believe all religions/deities are mythological. Just the writings of men attributing their writings to a good/diety.

So, why do you expect theists to abide by your preferred philosophy, if you do not expect non-theists to?

You posted:

"Ok, that is what you think. However, why do you think that? Is this simply a visceral response, or is there a rational justification?"

It is not what I think. You have it reversed.

No, I was responding to your assertion that, "If myself or you got into a physical altercation with someone, and they sought retribution by killing us, our wife/girlfriend, children, grandchildren, Mother, Father, Uncle, Aunt etc etc...I think that would be wrong." That is your scenario not mine. So, why do you think that? Is this simply a visceral response, or is there a rational justification?

You posted:

"There are several principles there. How does "respect for life" work in war? Regarding the other principles, how can one expect those things in war? Wars are because of a conflict in social order. If two parties are not in agreement regarding social order, how can one expect the other to abide by their social order?"

The principle is the extreme violence and mass murder associated with the God of Christianity and Judaism, especially violence against innocent children and babies, not a conventional war between humans.

No, you said, "One does not need the Geneva Covention to define war crimes, terrorism or crimes against humanity; adhering to the principles of respect for life, equal justice, fairness, decency and the old saying " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is all humans need." You said nothing about Christianity and Judaism, but seemed to be making the argument the those thing you listed are self evident. Why do you consider that to be the case?

If God is really omnipotent and omnipresent he would not be at war with anyone, because he is in control of everything that happens on Earth. I Samuel 2:6 states: "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up."

Yet the following unnecessary killing occurs:

Example I: In the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism the Pharoah ordered the drowning of the male Hebrew babies in the Nile River. This myth makes no sense, because why wouldn't a omnipotent and omnipresent God simply stop the Egyptians from killing the Hebrew male babies in the first place.

Who says it is unnecessary and what does omnipotence and omnipresence have to do with non-violence?

Instead, the omnipotent and omnipresent God of Christianity and Judaism allows it to happen, meaning it is really his fault. Then after allowing those innocent Hebrew firstborn children and babies to be murdered, he proceeds to murder even more firstborn children and babies of the Egyptians.

Hold it. Where are you getting fault and murder from. How do you know it is a fault and that those killings were murder. I think we need to establish a legal authority before we start throwing around terms like fault and murder. You say that Adonai is responsible for murder. Responsible to whom?

You posted:

"Precisely, the UN human rights council consists of over 20 nations. How can anything be decided that way. In addition, that list includes, Afganistan, Angola, Buruni, Cuba, and Venezuela. Are you kidding?"

Everyone of the countries you listed have also been the victim of barbaric, brutal and sadistic European and American imperialism, colonization i.e. genocide of millions of native people and the stealing of resources and land.

So, are they justified in continuing that behavior? If the other nations have been violent toward them and they are therefore justified in continuing that violence, doesn't that make my point? Humans are violent and human nation states even more so, especially in times of war.

You posted:

"If you mean omnibenevolent, omniloving and omni caring, you are correct. I don't believe in such a deity. That said, the most nonviolent, civil societies in the world have come out of the Judeo/Christian tradition."

The most barbaric, violent, genocidal, imperialist, colonizing, sadistic, and uncivil, societies in the history of the world, have come from Judeo/Christian tradition. Again if you start the forum topic I will engage you.

Are you saying that I am wrong with regard to the most nonviolent, civil societies in the world or are you saying the goodness does not matter as long as there is bad in the world?

You posted:

"Well, they didn't follow the manual very well, because, under Torah law, slavery is very difficult, if not impossible. In fact, manslaughter of a slave carries the equivalent of up to a life sentence and the murder of a slave carries the death penalty."

The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh of Judaism: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The supposed books written by Moses. What chapter and verse is the "manslaughter, life and death sentence" found in the Torah? I'm always open to learning something new.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... -full-text

"Though the terms "Bible" and "Old Testament" are commonly used by non-Jews to describe Judaism's scriptures, the appropriate term is "Tanach," which is derived as an acronym from the Hebrew letters of its three components: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim."
Torah - Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy

I am aware of all of that and I said Torah, because it is in the first five books that one finds the laws regarding equal justice, murder and the cities of refuge for manslaughter. We can examine these once we have addressed the basic principle of "rules of war", which you have asserted, but have yet to justify.

You posted:

"Where does one find the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in the Scriptures?"

Manifest Destiny:

https://www.history.com/topics/manifest-destiny

IMPACT OF MANIFEST DESTINY

Last time I checked niether history.com or that article were part of the Scriptures, nor did the part you quoted even refer to the Scriptures. Maybe we should deal with basic principle, before we start throughing aroung accusations. How is it that one can assure that "war crimes" will not be committed?

[Atef]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]

You posted:

"So, why do you expect theists to abide by your preferred philosophy, if you do not expect non-theists to?"

I don't expect anyone to do anything. The scriptures of the Tanakh of Judaism and Bible of Christianity contain violent, immoral, deviant and genocidal scriptures that are written by men who ascribe these scriptures to a mythical God associated with the religious books of Judaism and Christianity.

The mythical scriptures in the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism describe multiple examples of Collective Punishment (which results in death) being administered by the God of Christianity and Judaism against millions and millions of innocent people, especially children and babies.

No one has to abide by anything. The violent, immoral, deviant and genocidal scriptures of the Tanakh of Judaism and the Bible of Christianity speaks for itself.

You posted:

"No, I was responding to your assertion that, "If myself or you got into a physical altercation with someone, and they sought retribution by killing us, our wife/girlfriend, children, grandchildren, Mother, Father, Uncle, Aunt etc etc...I think that would be wrong." That is your scenario not mine. So, why do you think that? Is this simply a visceral response, or is there a rational justification?"

Right and wrong is right and wrong no matter the degree, level or circumstances. Showing respect and reverence for the dignity of life has no degree or level.

It has nothing to do with a visceral response, it has to with being consistent in the belief in civilized behavior and writings--versus uncivilized behavior and writings. It has to do with the intellectual and moral application of equality, justice, fairness, and upright-morality.

It has to do with the rejection of the use of barbaric, uncalled-for, unwarranted and unprincipled collective punishment that results in the death of millions and millions of innocent people, especially children and babies.

You posted:

"No, you said, "One does not need the Geneva Covention to define war https://biblehub.com/topical/i/iniquity.htmcrimes, terrorism or crimes against humanity; adhering to the principles of respect for life, equal justice, fairness, decency and the old saying " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is all humans need." You said nothing about Christianity and Judaism, but seemed to be making the argument the those thing you listed are self evident. Why do you consider that to be the case?"

The Geneva Convention considers "Collective Punishment" that results in the death of innocent people, to be a war crime, terrorism and crimes against humanity. The Geneva Convention is right.

No person with an upright moral compass needs the Geneva Convention to tell them that the use of "Collective Punishment" by the thank goodness, mythical God of Christianity and Judaism that resulted in the death of millions of innocent people, especially children and babies--is mass genocide, crimes against humanity and terrorism.

You posted:

"Who says it is unnecessary and what does omnipotence and omnipresence have to do with non-violence?"

Well an omnipotent and omnipresent God of Judaism and Christianity, if said God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent, would have ultimate control over whatever violence or non-violence occurs. However all religions and their gods and goddesses are man-made, mythological and many of the myths " have" and "make" no sense.

I believe anyone who values the life of children and babies would think it is completely unnecessary for millions of innocent children and babies to die because of collective punishment being administered by real life humans or in a myth associated with the God of Christianity and Judaism.

Even though the story is a myth: An "all powerful" and "all knowing" God of Christianity and Judaism would have "known" that the Pharoah was going to order the male Hebrew babies to be cast into the Nile River. So the "all powerful" God could have simply stopped the murdering of thousands of innocent babies, instead of allowing it to happen.

However the God of Christianity and Judaism allows the mass murder of thousands of Hebrew babies. Then later in the scriptures of the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism he engages in collective punishment and murders thousands and thousands more innocent firstborn children and babies.

You posted:

"So, are they justified in continuing that behavior? If the other nations have been violent toward them and they are therefore justified in continuing that violence, doesn't that make my point? Humans are violent and human nation states even more so, especially in times of war."

I agree that human nation's in time of war are especially violent. It may be part of the mythical religion of Hinduism, but I also agree with:

In Hinduism the myth of the Dharma Bull states: We are living during the time that the Dharma Bull is standing on only one leg. As a result we are living in the dark ages of evil, corruption, hate, greed, destruction, war, famine, disease and death.

You posted:

Are you saying that I am wrong with regard to the most nonviolent, civil societies in the world or are you saying the goodness does not matter as long as there is bad in the world? 

Yes, Second we need more goodness in this world that currently is dominated by bad; with no regard for the lives and future of the children and babies of the world. That is however, something for another forum topic.

You posted:

"I am aware of all of that and I said Torah, because it is in the first five books that one finds the laws regarding equal justice, murder and the cities of refuge for manslaughter. We can examine these once we have addressed the basic principle of "rules of war", which you have asserted, but have yet to justify."

We don't have to examine them, I know the Hebrew specific laws that are in the Tanakh regarding slavery; and they only add to my categorizing the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism as a "Operational Manual with Instructions and Guidelines for the Enslavement of Humans, Including Children and Babies."

I haven't asserted or broached any "basic principle of rules of war" that would be you. As previously discussed: This forum topic is about "Killing in the Bible and Tanakh: Is the Killing of Children Right" not rules of war between human people or nations.

You posted:

"Last time I checked niether history.com or that article were part of the Scriptures, nor did the part you quoted even refer to the Scriptures. Maybe we should deal with basic principle, before we start throughing aroung accusations. How is it that one can assure that "war crimes" will not be committed?"

I never posted anything citing "Manifest Destiny" as part of the scriptures of the Bible and Tanakh of Judaism.

I will try again to communicate the relationship between "Manifest Destiny" and the God of Christianity using the same sourced article:

https://www.history.com/topics/manifest-destiny

"Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, expressed the philosophy that drove 19th-century U.S. territorial expansion. Manifest Destiny held that the United States was destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent."

"Despite the lofty idealism of Manifest Destiny, the rapid territorial expansion over the first half of the 19th century resulted not only in war with Mexico, but in the dislocation and brutal mistreatment of Native American, Hispanic and other non-European occupants of the territories now being occupied by the United States."

Here is a video that may help:

[Atef]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]

You posted:

"Hold it. Where are you getting fault and murder from. How do you know it is a fault and that those killings were murder. I think we need to establish a legal authority before we start throwing around terms like fault and murder. You say that Adonai is responsible for murder. Responsible to whom?"

In the myth of the God of Christianity and Judaism, God obviously feels no responsibility to anyone. He should however feel some compassion, remorse and sorrow for the innocent parents of the thousands and thousands of innocent children and babies he killed i.e. murdered.

If someone terminated the lives of your family because of something you and your family had nothing to do with--what would you call it?

The God of Christianity and Judaism in his own words states he is a "jealous" God and will visit the "iniquity" of the fathers--"upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Uncontrolled and unhinged jealousy is a major character flaw that can lead to death in a relationship.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... mandments/

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6)

"You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

Iniquity

https://biblehub.com/topical/i/iniquity.htm

1. (n.) Gross injustice; unfairness; wickedness; sin; as, the iniquity of bribery; the iniquity of an unjust judge.

2. (n.) An iniquitous act or thing; a deed of injustice o/ unrighteousness; a sin; a crime.

3. (n.) A character or personification in the old English moralities, or moral dramas, having the name sometimes of one vice and sometimes of another. See Vice.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

INIQUITY

in-ik'-wi-ti (`awon; anomia): In the Old Testament of the 11 words translated "iniquity," by far the most common and important is `awon (about 215 times).

Etymologically, it is customary to explain it as meaning literally "crookedness," "perverseness," i.e. evil regarded as that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion (from `iwwah, "to bend," "make crooked," "pervert").....

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... sh/jealous

jealous adjective (UNHAPPY)

​B1 upset and angry because someone that you love seems interested in another person:

a jealous husband/wife

Anna says she feels jealous every time another woman looks at her boyfriend.

​B2 unhappy and angry because someone has something that you want:

Examples

He had always been very jealous of his brother's good looks.

In a moment of jealous frenzy, she cut the sleeves off all his shirts.

She gets insanely jealous if he so much as looks at another woman.

Her plans to make him jealous backfired on her when he went off with her best friend.

He gets really jealous if his girlfriend strikes up a friendship with another man.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jealous

Definition of jealous

1: hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage : envious His success made his old friends jealous. They were jealous of his success.

2a : intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness; jealous of the slightest interference in household management —Havelock Ellis

b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness a jealous husband

3: vigilant in guarding a possession;

jealous Synonyms

Synonyms
covetous, envious, green-eyed, invidious, jaundiced, resentful

Antonyms
unenvious

Near Antonyms: generous, kind, kindhearted;, altruistic, benevolent, charitable;, well-meaning

Related Words: begrudging, grudging, avaricious, grasping, greedy, rapacious,distrustful, suspicious, malicious, petty, spiteful

Phrases
eating one's heart out, green with envy

[TSGracchus]

Oh, c'mon folks. When killing your enemies was the righteous thing to do, then God approved. When society evolved a different ethic (Although not all approved the change to be sure!) then God approved that. The Biblical God is like a politician, agreeing with what ever is popular. Or maybe, just maybe, it is the people misstating God's position, and writing it down in some [font=Courier New]HOLY BOOK[/font] that must not be questioned or doubted?

[Atef]

[Replying to post 18 by TSGracchus]

I agree with one portion of your premise.

I'm sure there has to be a woman somewhere who created a mythological religion but for the most part:

To my knowledge all the world's dominant religions are created by men. All religions and religious books are mythological; and these men attribute a position, belief or action (like the mass killing of innocent people, especially children and babies), to a God.