When Delusion Becomes Downright Deception

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:35 am

Believing when you don't know any better is honest delusion, in my view.

But when you dilute and distort and disguise and discard Christian beliefs - like the Virgin Birth and the Global Flood and Eve and the Talking Serpent and Jesus returning to this planet with armies of angels to exterminate non-Christians, and other such long-held dogmas that aren't selling too well anymore - and you continue to proclaim the biblical writings as the Word of God, you are lying for Jesus.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:08 pm

[Replying to post 10 by StuartJ]

Christianity, it may surprise you to learn, is a broad church, not a binary option. One does not need believe everything or nothing; on the contrary, it tests the intellect. This may prove inconvenient for shallow critics, such as those who do believe everything or nothing, but that is their problem, not mine.

Best wishes, 2RM.

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:24 pm

Christianity can be just whatever believers choose it to be.

And the bits they don't like anymore are swept under the altar.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:46 am

So you keep asserting. And when I tell you the religion is more complex and nuanced than that, you don't want to hear. I wonder why?

Best wishes, 2RM.

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:12 am

[Replying to post 13 by 2ndRateMind]

Delusion becomes deception (self or otherwise) when you know the Word of Your God is false, and you know it can't possibly have come from Your God, and you continue to pass it off as the Word of Your God.

It's almost as bad to dilute and distort the Word of Your God to make it fit what you think Your God SHOULD be.

If you recognise that certain of the Word of Your God is myth, it's only a small step along your road to atheism to recognise that Your God is also myth.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:13 am

StuartJ wrote: [Replying to post 13 by 2ndRateMind]

Delusion becomes deception (self or otherwise) when you know the Word of Your God is false, and you know it can't possibly have come from Your God, and you continue to pass it off as the Word of Your God...

Yes, you have already said all that. You do not need to repeat yourself. I am not a complete idiot!

So, my position is that I am neither diluting nor distorting the word of God, merely applying my own interpretation of it, which, since the reformation, has been generally recognised as something all Christians are entitled to do. And then we get to the fun part; we can all argue over which interpretation is most valid!

Best wishes, 2RM.

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:25 am

I certainly consider lying for Jesus immoral.

Certain Christians do it all the time.

Will Jesus consider it immoral when they stand before the Throne ...?

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:31 am

And lying for Jesus has a very long history:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pious_fraud

How do you know the people you give a soft living to with your regular church contributions aren't lying for Jesus.

Many of them know they are dealing with myth and make-believe.

And they still take your money.

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:33 am

StuartJ wrote: I certainly consider lying for Jesus immoral.

Certain Christians do it all the time.

Will Jesus consider it immoral when they stand before the Throne ...?

How do you know the people you give a soft living to with your regular church contributions aren't lying for Jesus.

Many of them know they are dealing with myth and make-believe.

And they still take your money.

Name some names. Or withdraw the allegation.

Is evangelising genuinely held beliefs immoral?

But then, Jesus Himself said*:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It seems discerning and doing God's Will takes priority over a naive belief that Jesus condones the means as justified by the ends.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*Matthew 7:21-23 KJV

StuartJ · Post by **StuartJ** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:57 am

[Replying to post 18 by 2ndRateMind]

Give this a serious read:

https://owlcation.com/misc/Atheists-in- ... the-Clergy

You still haven't answered the question: "Is lying for Jesus immoral?".

I wonder why not ...?

2ndRateMind · Post by **2ndRateMind** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:12 am

[Replying to post 19 by StuartJ]

It seems our edits are cross-posting with our replies. My position on 'lying for Jesus' is based on the scripture I quoted above that suggests Jesus would not approve. If Christianity is true, then no lying is necessary. If it isn't, then no lying will save it. In either case, the lies are superfluous, and to be avoided.

Best wishes, 2RM

Debating Christianity and Religion

When Delusion Becomes Downright Deception

When Delusion Becomes Downright Deception

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