If God doesn't exist!

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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mms20102
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If God doesn't exist!

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?. Why should we be moral after his non-existence?

I'm not here to discuss what is right and wrong according to anyone, so please avoid making hypotheses about what morals could mean.
We will agree in this debate that morals are habits acquired through a belief system. After we finish discussing the Question of this debate, we will discuss morals in more detail.

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Miles
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Re: If God doesn't exist!

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Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 am If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Because morals codify behavior so we can better judge conduct and approach it rationally, either condemning or approving it, which can go a long way to help making a pleasant and comfortable society in which to live.

Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?.
You are aware, are you not, that there are societies that don't believe in a god, such as those comprised of Buddhists, yet still have morals?

Why should we be moral after his non-existence?
For the reasons I give in my first reply.



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Re: If God doesn't exist!

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Post by mms20102 »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:19 pm
mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 am If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Because morals codify behavior so we can better judge conduct and approach it rationally, either condemning or approving it, which can go a long way to help making a pleasant and comfortable society in which to live.



.
You answered "why morals are important?" not "Are morals useful in the absence of god?". And I mentioned above for this debate it is not about what morals mean but is it useful in the absence of god?
You are aware, are you not, that there are societies that don't believe in a god, such as those comprised of Buddhists, yet still have morals?
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

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Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!
Who is this god you claim Buddhism believes in?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #5

Post by mms20102 »

Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:44 am
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!
Who is this god you claim Buddhism believes in?


Tcg
This is not the Question of this debate but .... do you think Buddhism has one deity ? or do you think Buddhism has one set of beliefs?.
In India and other places Buddha presents different things and many Buddhists consider him as the reincarnation of God the most notable is the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #6

Post by Miles »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:19 pm
mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 am If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Because morals codify behavior so we can better judge conduct and approach it rationally, either condemning or approving it, which can go a long way to help making a pleasant and comfortable society in which to live.



.
You answered "why morals are important?" not "Are morals useful in the absence of god?". And I mentioned above for this debate it is not about what morals mean but is it useful in the absence of god?
Okay. Image Morals are useful in the absence of god because they codify behavior so we can better judge conduct and approach it rationally, either condemning or approving it, which can go a long way to help making a pleasant and comfortable society in which to live.

You are aware, are you not, that there are societies that don't believe in a god, such as those comprised of Buddhists, yet still have morals?
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!

"While Buddhism is a tradition focused on spiritual liberation, it is not a theistic religion. The Buddha himself rejected the idea of a creator god, and Buddhist philosophers have even argued that belief in an eternal god is nothing but a distraction for humans seeking enlightenment."
source


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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #7

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:57 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:44 am
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!
Who is this god you claim Buddhism believes in?


Tcg
This is not the Question of this debate but .... do you think Buddhism has one deity ? or do you think Buddhism has one set of beliefs?.
In India and other places Buddha presents different things and many Buddhists consider him as the reincarnation of God the most notable is the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu.
According to this article, it is some Hindus who consider him the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu:
Gautama Buddha in Hinduism

In the Vaishnavism sect of Hinduism, the historic Buddha or Gautama Buddha, is considered to be an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu. Of the ten major avatars of Vishnu, Vaishnavites believe Gautama Buddha to be the ninth and most recent incarnation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_B ... n_Hinduism
In any case, while some Buddhists accept the existence of deities, I don't think it would be accurate to consider this belief an aspect of Buddhism.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #8

Post by Dimmesdale »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 am If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?. Why should we be moral after his non-existence?

I'm not here to discuss what is right and wrong according to anyone, so please avoid making hypotheses about what morals could mean.
We will agree in this debate that morals are habits acquired through a belief system. After we finish discussing the Question of this debate, we will discuss morals in more detail.
One could say that, if God and Goodness are one and the same, or at least inextricably tied, there cannot be one without the other. The fact that there are morals, points to God's existence. So it may be meaningless to suppose the existence of reality as we know it (as it exists with morals) if there is no God. If there are morals, then on this reading God must exist. A world without God would not have morals, or any other type of goodness. So in that sense the question would never arise. We would be living in a completely different universe, or perhaps there would "be" only nothingness at all (since existence is also a type of good).

But let's take the hypothetical route and say that morals exist but God doesn't. Are still morals "valid" or "worthy" or good?

The question then would be if the morals were really real or "bona fide." If morals are real (that is, not a fake, farcical and fraudulent will-to-power gambit foisted on the masses by domination-hungry elites) then they should be respected just as much as if they really did originate with God. Because, as with the first scenario, God and Goodness are coterminous. All good must have its source in God, and even if it doesn't, it at least ought to.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #9

Post by mms20102 »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:23 pm
mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 am If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?. Why should we be moral after his non-existence?

I'm not here to discuss what is right and wrong according to anyone, so please avoid making hypotheses about what morals could mean.
We will agree in this debate that morals are habits acquired through a belief system. After we finish discussing the Question of this debate, we will discuss morals in more detail.
One could say that, if God and Goodness are one and the same, or at least inextricably tied, there cannot be one without the other. The fact that there are morals, points to God's existence. So it may be meaningless to suppose the existence of reality as we know it (as it exists with morals) if there is no God. If there are morals, then on this reading God must exist. A world without God would not have morals, or any other type of goodness. So in that sense the question would never arise. We would be living in a completely different universe, or perhaps there would "be" only nothingness at all (since existence is also a type of good).

But let's take the hypothetical route and say that morals exist but God doesn't. Are still morals "valid" or "worthy" or good?

The question then would be if the morals were really real or "bona fide." If morals are real (that is, not a fake, farcical and fraudulent will-to-power gambit foisted on the masses by domination-hungry elites) then they should be respected just as much as if they really did originate with God. Because, as with the first scenario, God and Goodness are coterminous. All good must have its source in God, and even if it doesn't, it at least ought to.
[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #8]

Taking into consideration that morals are orders and laws given by God to organize our life, and organize the relationship between each other, will make the answer as, "it's impossible to have morality without the existence of God". Also, why should I be moral if no one will care?! In other words, whom should I fear if I become less moral?. For example, a person abused children sexually, and published videos of the abused child, any mindful man can consider this as immoral but why he needs to care while this satisfies his perverted pleasures?!. Another example is "suicide'' if society adopted suicide as a normal action, what will prevent young children from suicide?!. If morals are something we do to satisfy normal persons, it's useless and will have no meaning at all to follow them, since morals are not only related to rules against others, but also personal rules that follow and organize our actions against ourselves. If God doesn't exist, morals will lose their usefulness, since there is no need to stick to something that will not achieve my benefit, and in other words, morals will move

from>>>>>>
Miles wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:02 pm Because morals codify behavior so we can better judge conduct and approach it rationally, either condemning or approving it, which can go a long way to help making a pleasant and comfortable society in which to live.
.
to >>>>>>

Morals are general Ideas to describe human behavior with no obligation on any person's lifestyle or actions. That means it will lose its importance of doing the things mentioned above.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #10

Post by mms20102 »

Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:00 pm
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:57 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:44 am
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!
Who is this god you claim Buddhism believes in?


Tcg
This is not the Question of this debate but .... do you think Buddhism has one deity ? or do you think Buddhism has one set of beliefs?.
In India and other places Buddha presents different things and many Buddhists consider him as the reincarnation of God the most notable is the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu.
According to this article, it is some Hindus who consider him the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu:
Gautama Buddha in Hinduism

In the Vaishnavism sect of Hinduism, the historic Buddha or Gautama Buddha, is considered to be an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu. Of the ten major avatars of Vishnu, Vaishnavites believe Gautama Buddha to be the ninth and most recent incarnation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_B ... n_Hinduism
In any case, while some Buddhists accept the existence of deities, I don't think it would be accurate to consider this belief an aspect of Buddhism.


Tcg
Otseng wrote in Forum Rules:
4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread.
I hope if you want to discuss Hinduism or Buddhism to start another thread

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