If God doesn't exist!

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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mms20102
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If God doesn't exist!

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?. Why should we be moral after his non-existence?

I'm not here to discuss what is right and wrong according to anyone, so please avoid making hypotheses about what morals could mean.
We will agree in this debate that morals are habits acquired through a belief system. After we finish discussing the Question of this debate, we will discuss morals in more detail.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #11

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:00 pm
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:57 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:44 am
mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:29 am
Well you seem to miss the fact that Buddhism still believe in a god doesn't matter what god they believe in but I'm here to speak about atheists view point since all believers believe in a God what ever its!
Who is this god you claim Buddhism believes in?


Tcg
This is not the Question of this debate but .... do you think Buddhism has one deity ? or do you think Buddhism has one set of beliefs?.
In India and other places Buddha presents different things and many Buddhists consider him as the reincarnation of God the most notable is the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu.
According to this article, it is some Hindus who consider him the 9th reincarnation of Vishnu:
Gautama Buddha in Hinduism

In the Vaishnavism sect of Hinduism, the historic Buddha or Gautama Buddha, is considered to be an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu. Of the ten major avatars of Vishnu, Vaishnavites believe Gautama Buddha to be the ninth and most recent incarnation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_B ... n_Hinduism
In any case, while some Buddhists accept the existence of deities, I don't think it would be accurate to consider this belief an aspect of Buddhism.


Tcg
Otseng wrote in Forum Rules:
4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread.
I hope if you want to discuss Hinduism or Buddhism to start another thread
It is relevant because of your denial of the morality that is inherent in Buddhism absent god/gods. You've been given a valid example of morality without god/gods and rather than admit this fact you made a false claim about Buddhism. The topic of debate is morality without God. Buddhism provides an example of the very thing you claim to want to discuss.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #12

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:06 am
Also, why should I be moral if no one will care?! In other words, whom should I fear if I become less moral?.
Those you would harm absent morals will care a great deal. Empathy should motivate one not to harm others. Of course if it is only fear of punishment that motivates, one will only be motivated to avoid causing harm when they can get caught doing so. Empathy motivates absent fear of punishment.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #13

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #0]

Ok let me pin-point the problem with your explanation. Morals are applied almost always due to a super-natural power that will revenge your mistakes and let's say it like that to the explanation of Buddhism to morality since Buddhism consider morality required in order to reach Nirvana and to avoid bad Karma which both refer to super-natural powers.

Now the question comes, as an athiest do you believe in super-naturals (God, Karma) in order to make morals worth applying ?!. Since no athiest believe in any sort of super-natural judgement any athiest can describe morals as good things to be done and benefit himself without a commitment of doing it. That will make morals only good actions that we can abandon depending on personal preference.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #14

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #13]
Empathy motivates absent fear of punishment.
That's exactly what trying to reach. Since there no punishment, morals became good deeds that depends on empathy, like you mentioned, which will make it lose the core of its usefulness.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:58 am [Replying to Tcg in post #0]

Ok let me pin-point the problem with your explanation. Morals are applied almost always due to a super-natural power that will revenge your mistakes and let's say it like that to the explanation of Buddhism to morality since Buddhism consider morality required in order to reach Nirvana and to avoid bad Karma which both refer to super-natural powers.

Now the question comes, as an athiest do you believe in super-naturals (God, Karma) in order to make morals worth applying ?!. Since no athiest believe in any sort of super-natural judgement any athiest can describe morals as good things to be done and benefit himself without a commitment of doing it. That will make morals only good actions that we can abandon depending on personal preference.
Atheism is not a lack of belief in the supernatural, but rather a lack of belief in god/gods. Buddhism still qualifies in spite of your continued attempt to remove it from consideration.

Morals can be abandoned at any time for any reason under any system. Adding god/gods to the equation does nothing to change this.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #16

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 am [Replying to Tcg in post #13]
Empathy motivates absent fear of punishment.
That's exactly what trying to reach. Since there no punishment, morals became good deeds that depends on empathy, like you mentioned, which will make it lose the core of its usefulness.
No system is perfect. A simple review of the penal system reveals the fact that fear of punishment is no panacea.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #17

Post by Dimmesdale »

mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:06 am
Taking into consideration that morals are orders and laws given by God to organize our life, and organize the relationship between each other, will make the answer as, "it's impossible to have morality without the existence of God". Also, why should I be moral if no one will care?! In other words, whom should I fear if I become less moral?.
That's a very important point. I think it was Hobbes or Locke or some other Enlightenment figure who said that morality is worthless if it cannot enforce its authority through sanctions. No one should respect such a morality because it goes unenforced. That says something about reality; namely, that it is weak and ineffectual, should it be the case that that morality cannot enforce its laws through sanctions.

That is why I am of the opinion that reality in actual truth is much better than that. That's why I think actions have consequences. Otherwise reality is no better than fantasy.
mms20102 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:06 am For example, a person abused children sexually, and published videos of the abused child, any mindful man can consider this as immoral but why he needs to care while this satisfies his perverted pleasures?!.

Well, that's the whole gist of it: he doesn't care. Not yet, anyway, so far as he can get away with his misdeeds. Once he starts suffering the consequences, that's where the moral law can actually flex its power over him. Then, hopefully, he will repent and start to care. Because the law isn't done with him.

The moral law shouldn't depend on us caring or not caring though; it is supposed to be enforceable regardless of our attitudes regarding it. Otherwise the moral law would bow down to our whims, which it can't. The moral law is greater than any person, except God, who not only enforces it but in my view is inseparable from the "Good" - the Law.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #18

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #16]
Atheism is not a lack of belief in the supernatural, but rather a lack of belief in god/gods. Buddhism still qualifies in spite of your continued attempt to remove it from consideration.

Morals can be abandoned at any time for any reason under any system.


Tcg
How come atheists believe in super-natural ? not even one athiest leader wrote that in his books in fact its counter to the rational view of sensible science which atheism built its temple upon.
A simple review of the penal system reveals the fact that fear of punishment is no panacea.
The penal system is a man made system that has lots of deficiencies compared to a system made by the creator of all of the perfect systems mentioned below. Since the moral system is a system made by God and here I will specify Islam as the example, The fear of punishment is not temporal and requires the one who broke the system to do two things, stop doing the immoral act and repent in case its against God laws, or stop doing the immoral act and make the person whom he committed the immoral act against to forgive him or else he will be judged after death. And that's the main reason Muslims in particular make lots of consideration before becoming immoral. Indeed no one is perfect and indeed you will breach the moral laws made by God but you have to do the things mentioned earlier in order to survive the punishment.
Fear of punishment and Rewarding systems work in a parallelism were both should be applied in order to achieve the ultimate effect on the human nature and applying one of the two alone will result in nothing but a deficiency.
Adding god/gods to the equation does nothing to change this.
Indeed it plays a great role in the equation. Due to the reasons mentioned above about fear of Karma, Reaching Niravana, God judgment after death, Going to heaven.
No system is perfect.

Who said there is no perfect system?. The solar system is perfect. Life conditions on earth is perfect. Human body system is perfect. One cell system is perfect. If atheists believe in super-naturals then it would be more rational to consider one super-creator to the perfect universe as the only smart creator which is the only rational way after all the sciences we have today.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #19

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #18]
That's a very important point. I think it was Hobbes or Locke or some other Enlightenment figure who said that morality is worthless if it cannot enforce its authority through sanctions. No one should respect such a morality because it goes unenforced. That says something about reality; namely, that it is weak and ineffectual, should it be the case that that morality cannot enforce its laws through sanctions.

That is why I am of the opinion that reality in actual truth is much better than that. That's why I think actions have consequences. Otherwise reality is no better than fantasy.
Reality in actual truth will not define what's moral and what's immoral but of course it can help you be a bit moral but still it won't achieve the full usage of morals like you mentioned above due to lack of sanctions. As I mentioned to Tcg the main issue with penal system is, it is made by human beings and has lots of deficiencies.
Well, that's the whole gist of it: he doesn't care. Not yet, anyway, so far as he can get away with his misdeeds. Once he starts suffering the consequences, that's where the moral law can actually flex its power over him. Then, hopefully, he will repent and start to care. Because the law isn't done with him.
If he knew that the moral system is a law to follow because he will be judged even if he died he will think one million time before and after doing what is mentioned above.
The moral law shouldn't depend on us caring or not caring though; it is supposed to be enforceable regardless of our attitudes regarding it. Otherwise the moral law would bow down to our whims, which it can't. The moral law is greater than any person, except God, who not only enforces it but in my view is inseparable from the "Good" - the Law.
Enforcing moral systems by force only will result in a rebellion state from people against the laws. I agree to your statement some how and that's why we have a divine revelations on the penalties that should be applied by the judge in case of breaching the laws and yet although many persons consider those punishment are harsh we never came to realize the effect of it over the one who broke the law or even the ones witnessed the law being applied.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #20

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to mms20102 in post #1]

I would like to add this Article to support my viewpoint

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/endi ... -sqqdbmcpq#

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