If God doesn't exist!

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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mms20102
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If God doesn't exist!

Post #1

Post by mms20102 »

If we assume the non-existence of God, why should there be any morals at all ?.
Since morals in any belief system defines what's right and wrong, and people of any belief system follow the morals according to their books, what if God doesn't exist?. Why should we be moral after his non-existence?

I'm not here to discuss what is right and wrong according to anyone, so please avoid making hypotheses about what morals could mean.
We will agree in this debate that morals are habits acquired through a belief system. After we finish discussing the Question of this debate, we will discuss morals in more detail.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #31

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #30]

That's exactly what sophistry means deny any logical evidence and stick to an idea with no proof. Now you need to present what are your sources of morality since your set of ideas is different than any person in this world and tell every reader what you base your morals upon since I feel like we are pursuing mirage in an open desert.
This is not evidence. This is but a claim based on religious propaganda.
Your claims also is nothing but a propaganda why you think you were much better at explaining ?!.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #32

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 am [Replying to Tcg in post #30]

That's exactly what sophistry means deny any logical evidence and stick to an idea with no proof. Now you need to present what are your sources of morality since your set of ideas is different than any person in this world and tell every reader what you base your morals upon since I feel like we are pursuing mirage in an open desert.
I've already provided that. Not surprisingly you have ignored it.
This is not evidence. This is but a claim based on religious propaganda.
Your claims also is nothing but a propaganda why you think you were much better at explaining ?!.
What claims are you referring to?
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #33

Post by mms20102 »

Tcg wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:28 am
mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 am [Replying to Tcg in post #30]


Those you would harm absent morals will care a great deal. Empathy should motivate one not to harm others. Of course if it is only fear of punishment that motivates, one will only be motivated to avoid causing harm when they can get caught doing so. Empathy motivates absent fear of punishment.
If this is the basis of your morality then prove its better than my view.
What claims are you referring to?
Well all of your claims.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #34

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:12 am
Tcg wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:28 am
mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 am [Replying to Tcg in post #30]


Those you would harm absent morals will care a great deal. Empathy should motivate one not to harm others. Of course if it is only fear of punishment that motivates, one will only be motivated to avoid causing harm when they can get caught doing so. Empathy motivates absent fear of punishment.
If this is the basis of your morality then prove its better than my view.
Where did I make the claim it is better than your view? You are attempting to show that morality can't exist absent belief in God. I've shown that isn't true. Does this question represent your agreement that morality can and does exist absent belief in God and have changed the topic to a discussion of which system works best? Are you claiming that yours is better?
What claims are you referring to?
Well all of your claims.
Are you suggesting it has not been shown that both Buddhism and Humanism are systems of morality that aren't based on theism?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #35

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:20 am [Replying to Tcg in post #30]

That's exactly what sophistry means deny any logical evidence and stick to an idea with no proof.
When presented with evidence that Buddhism is not a theistic system, you described the actions of some Hindus as evidence that Buddhism is theistic. Nothing logical about that. You've also presented a few quotes from atheists expressing their opinion about morality and expect their opinion to taken as authoritative for all. This is certainly not logical evidence to support what you claim. Beyond that, you've quoted the Quran as if it is to be taken as authoritative. The Quran contains claims, not logical evidence.

So where is the logical evidence I have denied?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #36

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #35]
Where did I make the claim it is better than your view? You are attempting to show that morality can't exist absent belief in God. I've shown that isn't true. Does this question represent your agreement that morality can and does exist absent belief in God and have changed the topic to a discussion of which system works best? Are you claiming that yours is better?
You see you are claiming that Humanism without slight evidence to prove this claim has morality. Morality in humanism is subjective and can depend on societies and Dawkins said "we can't judge what Hitler did as absolutely wrong" and again we are shifting the question from "what is the use of morals in the absence of God to how do we define morals"
Sam Harris tried to say that morals can be scientifically explained away from god but end up failing to prove this scientifically and practically and the reason is science is very far from describing what makes an animal mother care for her child just like human mothers care for there children instinctively.
Humanism and Buddhism presented a distorted image of what morals are and what they could be and both depended on built-in instincts that every human being has but didn't mention how did we gain those instincts.
No one could explain our tendency to be moral.
When you ask any mindful person what will happen when people realize there is no God, the direct impact is everyone will set his own set of rules and people will be less moral, since everyone will seek his benefit.
Buddhism is not a theistic system
Saying that all Buddhists are atheists is misleading also not knowing what Buddhists believe in can lead to your misunderstanding.
He is revered as the founder of the world religion of Buddhism and worshipped by most Buddhist schools as the Enlightened One who has transcended Karma and escaped the cycle of birth and rebirth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha
Knowing this you can understand clearly that they believed in morals only because of Buddha .....
Please when you discuss Buddhism doesn't state a broad term that concludes a different set of beliefs and be specific. like when I say Christians say Jesus is a god it's a broad statement since not all Christians do.
So where is the logical evidence I have denied?
Where is the logical evidence you have presented in the first place? you merely said that empathy is the main reason for being moral do you consider this logical. When I Quoted atheists, I tried to show you that it's not theist's viewpoint many atheists know the same thing.
When you ask a Muslim for proof I will return to my main book now when I ask you for proof what is your main source?
Let me put it straight what are the sources of your morals?

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #37

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:46 am
When you ask a Muslim for proof I will return to my main book now when I ask you for proof what is your main source?
That's a major fail as the Quran doesn't provide proof. It is a book of claims. Your religious affiliation doesn't change this fact.
Let me put it straight what are the sources of your morals?
I've already answered this. I don't know why you ask it repeatedly.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #38

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #38]
That's a major fail as the Quran doesn't provide proof. It is a book of claims. Your religious affiliation doesn't change this fact.
Quran provides tons of proofs but you refuse any thing written in it and that's not the fault of Quran apparently. My claims are crystal clear you don't need to ask every Muslim scholar to get a different answer unlike you. I need to ask every athiest about his viewpoint since you consider yourself as a unique entity separated from others.
I've already answered this. I don't know why you ask it repeatedly.
Well, you can forgive my short memory and quote yourself. I already pointed out the deficiency in your moral term, and yet you stick to it, which shows it has a grave deficiency. How can we progress further if you refuse to provide an applicable way toward your understanding of morals?.

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #39

Post by Tcg »

mms20102 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:51 am [Replying to Tcg in post #38]
That's a major fail as the Quran doesn't provide proof. It is a book of claims. Your religious affiliation doesn't change this fact.
Quran provides tons of proofs but you refuse any thing written in it and that's not the fault of Quran apparently. My claims are crystal clear you don't need to ask every Muslim scholar to get a different answer unlike you. I need to ask every athiest about his viewpoint since you consider yourself as a unique entity separated from other.
Yes, your claims are crystal clear. The problem is you've provided no evidence to support them. Reasserting your acceptance of and reliance on the Quran doesn't get the job done. But yes, if you want to know an atheist's opinion you will need to ask them. We are all individuals who have our own opinions about many things including morality.
I've already answered this. I don't know why you ask it repeatedly.
Well, you can forgive my short memory and quote yourself. I already pointed out the deficiency in your moral term, and yet you stick to it, which shows it has a grave deficiency. How can we progress further if you refuse to provide an applicable way toward your understanding of morals?.
All you've provided is why you don't like my explanation of morality. This is not evidence of any deficiency. Apparently you will reject any moral system that doesn't rely on god/gods. Your position starts with the conclusion you are hoping it will prove.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: If God doesn't exist!

Post #40

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Tcg in post #40]
Yes, your claims are crystal clear. The problem is you've provided no evidence to support them.
Well unlike your claims mine are clear at least and logically based.
Reasserting your acceptance of and reliance on the Quran doesn't get the job done.
As I said before I have basis for my believe that you failed to criticize logically and all your criticism was based on personal preference.
But yes, if you want to know an atheist's opinion you will need to ask them. We are all individuals who have our own opinions about many things including morality.
That's what I said earlier you lack logical evidence but you base your opinions on personal preference that's why you failed to give me a basis.
All you've provided is why you don't like my explanation of morality. This is not evidence of any deficiency. Apparently you will reject any moral system that doesn't rely on god/gods. Your position starts with the conclusion you are hoping it will prove.
I will agree to this claim yet, give me a reason to why my reasoning is logically fallacious or why my Idea concludes deficiency.
When you spoke about empathy you said this what morals should be without commenting on the bad side-effects of your view also you rejected other theories on why god is necessary for the moral process. Knowing what I said, you should understand that it's not a conclusion but view point to be criticized, you failed to do any constructive argument but started showing how non-religious people could have some sort of morality and that's some thing I didn't deny not being religious doesn't require not being moral. But do you think every non-religious person should be moral ?

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