The Value of Blind Obedience

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Purple Knight
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The Value of Blind Obedience

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Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: Does Blind Obedience have Value?

Let's say that I am standing on the edge of a cliff over a pit of lava, and there is a man standing there with a vial. He says there is nothing in the vial that is harmful, but Billy-be-Good, who is also there, but his leg is broken, says to me, no, that man is evil, in the vial is a disease that will end the world and he intends to open that vial, so you must push him into the lava.

That doesn't make sense to me, I tell Billy-be-Good. If I try to push him in, and he is bent on using it to destroy the world as you say, he will just open the vial as he falls. He won't do that, says Billy-be-Good, I promise you, the universe is constructed in such a way that it might not make sense to you, but this act I am asking of you is good and letting him be is evil. You can't understand but I do. You must push him into the lava.

So I shrug and charge the fellow, and as luck would have it, Billy-be-Good is actually correct. The vial falls into the lava and the world is saved. Now, I didn't think that would happen, I didn't see how he could have possibly known that or how it would possibly turn out that way, but Billy-be-Good had information I did not, and he also happened to be telling the truth. So ding-ding-ding, I win... I guess? I suppose I win... goodness?

And in the universe where Billy-be-Good was deceiving me, I suppose, bzzt. In that universe, I don't get the prize. I guessed incorrectly. I lose.

Am I being a piece of barf because I don't want to think that good is a prize you win in a lottery for being lucky and picking the door with the prize behind it?

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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

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Post by Dimmesdale »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

I would say your story is arbitrary, without a reality-nested context and with no compelling point(s) of contact with the world we actually live in.

I can make up any story where the pieces can be arranged any which way, with people knowing certain things, having different motives, switched around, etc. But the natural world we find ourselves is not like that. There is chaos, but for the same reason there is land you can fix your feet upon. God doesn't reveal himself to just anyone, but he leaves room for inquiry to sincere seekers. It's a challenge, but the path can be traversed, even if it's only connecting breadcrumbs at the outset.

Reality is an open book in some ways. You can tell if someone is a fraud by their qualities. And on that basis you can decide whether to trust him or not, at least, until you can learn even more things..... If you see a so-called teacher doing crack, that's an immediate reminder that most humans are fallible in this day and age. But there is so, so much more we can look at in this open book called life.

Thus, you can think in concentric circles; big, big concentric circles, rather than mere pareidoliac constellations which are arbitrary.

There is risk involved in every endeavor. However, the more you test reality by judging like with like, and also pray for success, the better your chances at arriving at a conclusion that is definitive -- and then, like an electrical current, you can get plugged into a form of trust that rises beyond all doubt.

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

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Post by Purple Knight »

Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 pmI would say your story is arbitrary, without a reality-nested context and with no compelling point(s) of contact with the world we actually live in.
It happens to me every day, in one way or another. I must trust somebody because I don't have access to the moral information they do. I had to change one thing, and make it so that, in the story, the lack of information is about what will actually happen, not whether a certain act is good or evil, because lacking information is at least believable. Most people simply don't accept that there are people without consciences who don't know right from wrong and must always ask someone else.

I don't have the moral standing to dismiss anyone. The rapist, homicidal crackhead maniac knows better than I do. People are fallible, but people know right from wrong at least.
Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 pmThere is risk involved in every endeavor. However, the more you test reality by judging like with like, and also pray for success, the better your chances at arriving at a conclusion that is definitive -- and then, like an electrical current, you can get plugged into a form of trust that rises beyond all doubt.
Even if I concede this is something that happens, I don't think it happens to everyone. The moment I felt like that, felt like I knew the answer absolutely, I would have to doubt it. The more I felt like that, the more I would doubt.

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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

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Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 pm ..and then, like an electrical current, you can get plugged into a form of trust that rises beyond all doubt.
I'm sure if you get strapped into one of these:

Image

Any doubt of the power of electric current will disappear.




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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

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Post by Purple Knight »

Tcg wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:27 pmI'm sure if you get strapped into one of these [electric chair] Any doubt of the power of electric current will disappear.
I think your post is more on-the-nose to what he's describing than you realise.

It's about showing, not telling. Most of us don't immediately doubt what we can perceive with our senses without a LOT of conflicting evidence. Maybe it's like that for religious people. Maybe they have a sense of having been shown, not simply told. It's real to them because they can perceive it.

We already know morality works like this. People not clued in to the fact that you shouldn't kill other people just don't perceive that truth, but most people do. No capacity for empathy. Born with broken brain.

So perhaps we're the ones whose brains simply aren't functioning properly.

I can't just trust people though. They might be lying. We know people lie. So even if this is true, I have to think whatever this God thing is, it's not very fair, and it's still made belief in itself (necessary for salvation) a guessing game of pick-a-prophet. I might choose to trust Charlie because I think he's the prophet. But bzzt, I lose. Should have picked Reggie instead; he was the true prophet and Charlie was a liar and a false prophet. Darn. Better luck not burning in a lake of fire next time, of which there will not be one of since damnation is for keeps.

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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

Post #6

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:27 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 pm ..and then, like an electrical current, you can get plugged into a form of trust that rises beyond all doubt.
I'm sure if you get strapped into one of these:

Image

Any doubt of the power of electric current will disappear.




Tcg
O yeah.. You don't know what I'M feelin.' 8-)
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: The Value of Blind Obedience

Post #7

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]
Does Blind Obedience have Value?
I think anything can have value to the right person under the right circumstance, relative to that person.
Value isn't a real, universal thing, but a highly subjective concept.
For me, a $164,000 M8 Competition is more valuable than a $204,000 AMG GT63-S. But for another, that difference may not be enough to think twice.

So blind faith may, indeed, find value in certain circles. I'm just not in that circle, personally.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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