Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

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nobspeople
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Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Reference:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amazon-worke ... 14581.html

For discussion:

1) Should Amazon stop selling this book, in light of another, said 'similar' book is stopped selling earlier?

2) Is there a 'transgender craze' (sweeping) in the USA (“Many of the adolescent girls suddenly identifying as transgender seemed to be caught in a 'craze' — a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus.”)?
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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #2

Post by Miles »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:21 pm Reference:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amazon-worke ... 14581.html

For discussion:

1) Should Amazon stop selling this book, in light of another, said 'similar' book is stopped selling earlier?
Even not "in light of another, said 'similar' book" should Amazon carry the book. Just as Amazon shouldn't carry books promoting any other bogus medical conclusions.


2) Is there a 'transgender craze' (sweeping) in the USA (“Many of the adolescent girls suddenly identifying as transgender seemed to be caught in a 'craze' — a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus.”)?
Lately there seems be an eye-opening recognition and acceptance of transgenderism, which I believe is a good thing. As for "a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus." I applaud such a development. The more a person can accept, and is accepted for, their personal identity and gender, no matter what it may be, the better off we all are.



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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:21 pm Reference:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amazon-worke ... 14581.html

For discussion:

1) Should Amazon stop selling this book, in light of another, said 'similar' book is stopped selling earlier?
That's not for me to answer. This is capitalism and Amazon can do whatever it wants. If there really was a "transgender craze" making everyone crazy, Amazon is free to indulge it if it makes them money. And if there's not and what trans advocates say is true, Amazon is also free to help make people think truth tellers are crazy. The only wrong choice is whatever will lose them money.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:21 pm2) Is there a 'transgender craze' (sweeping) in the USA (“Many of the adolescent girls suddenly identifying as transgender seemed to be caught in a 'craze' — a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus.”)?
I need to answer this question with a question, because you asked and it's about what you think the terms mean. So what do you say if I tell you that anorexia is not a mental illness and anorexics should be allowed and encouraged to get the bodies they want? What do you say if I tell you, you care if they starve? Why? Maybe they want to starve. Maybe the chance of starvation or malnutrition is worth it to them, to get the bodies they want. What if I tell you, instead of institutionalising these people, we ought to be more encouraging. Let's figure out who's an anorexic and help them be anorexic. Let's celebrate them for who they are. Let's sell high-vitamin, no calorie anorexic meals so they can live as long as possible and be as thin as possible. Do you call me a sicko? Do you think I'm right?

This is a hot button issue for me because I'm into very thin girls. What I am most attracted to is too thin to menstruate, and the psychological industry says, oh, that's unhealthy, and then they snatch them up, put them in nuthouses because they've decided it's a disorder, and forcefeed them until they're disgustingly fat. So I wonder, if it's unhealthy to lose your period, why are other girls allowed to cut off their vaginas entirely? Surely when they swap their vaginas for penises, they no longer menstruate either.

So personally, I'm not going to pick and choose between different people who want to be different and tell one they're sick but the other that she has a right to be however she likes. If you do want to do that, then you've already answered your own question, and you simply need to decide whether you think transgenderism is a mental disorder or not, because that's what this is about: Whether we can impose our ideas of normal and healthy onto others who don't want them. If you say we can, then just do it. But if you say we can't, then we can't, and we should burn the DSM.
Miles wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:20 pmLately there seems be an eye-opening recognition and acceptance of transgenderism, which I believe is a good thing. As for "a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus." I applaud such a development. The more a person can accept, and is accepted for, their personal identity and gender, no matter what it may be, the better off we all are.
Most people who say they believe this, don't. I'm not accusing you; I'm just very jaded on this issue. Most people will follow the wind and give recognition and acceptance to whosoever popular culture demands they give it to, but when presented with someone who popular culture still condemns for the way they are, they'll say, but, that's different, they'll pick out some random difference in issues that's not relevant, they'll give themselves a gold medal for morality, and they'll condemn that person as a mentally ill sicko who needs to change, by force if necessary, too.

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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #4

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:24 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:21 pm Reference:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/amazon-worke ... 14581.html

For discussion:

1) Should Amazon stop selling this book, in light of another, said 'similar' book is stopped selling earlier?
That's not for me to answer. This is capitalism and Amazon can do whatever it wants. If there really was a "transgender craze" making everyone crazy, Amazon is free to indulge it if it makes them money. And if there's not and what trans advocates say is true, Amazon is also free to help make people think truth tellers are crazy. The only wrong choice is whatever will lose them money.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:21 pm2) Is there a 'transgender craze' (sweeping) in the USA (“Many of the adolescent girls suddenly identifying as transgender seemed to be caught in a 'craze' — a cultural enthusiasm that spreads like a virus.”)?
I need to answer this question with a question, because you asked and it's about what you think the terms mean. So what do you say if I tell you that anorexia is not a mental illness and anorexics should be allowed and encouraged to get the bodies they want? What do you say if I tell you, you care if they starve? Why? Maybe they want to starve. Maybe the chance of starvation or malnutrition is worth it to them, to get the bodies they want. What if I tell you, instead of institutionalising these people, we ought to be more encouraging. Let's figure out who's an anorexic and help them be anorexic. Let's celebrate them for who they are. Let's sell high-vitamin, no calorie anorexic meals so they can live as long as possible and be as thin as possible. Do you call me a sicko? Do you think I'm right?

This is a hot button issue for me because I'm into very thin girls. What I am most attracted to is too thin to menstruate, and the psychological industry says, oh, that's unhealthy, and then they snatch them up, put them in nuthouses because they've decided it's a disorder, and forcefeed them until they're disgustingly fat. So I wonder, if it's unhealthy to lose your period, why are other girls allowed to cut off their vaginas entirely? Surely when they swap their vaginas for penises, they no longer menstruate either.

So personally, I'm not going to pick and choose between different people who want to be different and tell one they're sick but the other that she has a right to be however she likes. If you do want to do that, then you've already answered your own question, and you simply need to decide whether you think transgenderism is a mental disorder or not, because that's what this is about: Whether we can impose our ideas of normal and healthy onto others who don't want them. If you say we can, then just do it. But if you say we can't, then we can't, and we should burn the DSM.
Personally, I don't care what people do to themselves. If someone wants help, they can get it and it should be provided to them. If they don't want help... meh - that's their choice (I'm saying this as having a brother that's somewhere, doing drugs of all sorts, after being through more than one 'dry out' facility).
Otherwise, they can do what they want: cut themselves, starve themselves, dance naked at church, walk on their hands, do their own sex reassignment surgery, whatever... so long as it doesn't impact me and my direct family negatively, it's none of my business.
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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #5

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:10 amPersonally, I don't care what people do to themselves. If someone wants help, they can get it and it should be provided to them. If they don't want help... meh - that's their choice (I'm saying this as having a brother that's somewhere, doing drugs of all sorts, after being through more than one 'dry out' facility).
Otherwise, they can do what they want: cut themselves, starve themselves, dance naked at church, walk on their hands, do their own sex reassignment surgery, whatever... so long as it doesn't impact me and my direct family negatively, it's none of my business.
If everyone believed this, there would not be a huge, five-kilo book called the DSM (Disgnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) that does nothing but tell people what they can and can't do to themselves, and how they can and can't be themselves. Such a thing would be regarded as the same sort of evil being anti-gay or anti-trans is.

I'm not anti-acceptance, but I am anti-false-acceptance.

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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:57 pm
nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:10 amPersonally, I don't care what people do to themselves. If someone wants help, they can get it and it should be provided to them. If they don't want help... meh - that's their choice (I'm saying this as having a brother that's somewhere, doing drugs of all sorts, after being through more than one 'dry out' facility).
Otherwise, they can do what they want: cut themselves, starve themselves, dance naked at church, walk on their hands, do their own sex reassignment surgery, whatever... so long as it doesn't impact me and my direct family negatively, it's none of my business.
If everyone believed this, there would not be a huge, five-kilo book called the DSM (Disgnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) that does nothing but tell people what they can and can't do to themselves, and how they can and can't be themselves. Such a thing would be regarded as the same sort of evil being anti-gay or anti-trans is.

I'm not anti-acceptance, but I am anti-false-acceptance.
Opinion noted.
IMO, people should be allowed to do what they want to themselves (as long as it only impacts them and their life). It's their life to live and do with what they please (though many Christians don't seem to agree), mental illness or not.
Otherwise, we enter the beginnings of a 'brother-hood state of being' where everyone else is concerned with what everyone else is doing all the time, into everyone's lives, when many times, it's none of their business. It's a false sense of concern.
If you want cut yourself when you're happy, or sad, it's none of my business; I couldn't care less what you do to your body.
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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #7

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Its funny how nobody stands up much for Rachel Dolezal who is a white woman who identifies as a black woman, yet everyone and their dog jumps up and down to defend a man who wants to identify as a woman and vice versa.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a white man decided to identify as a black woman, that would certainly be fun to watch in the newspapers.

"Oh, well, erm. Look you can be a woman but you can't be black, be sensible here please."
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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #8

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:12 pm"Oh, well, erm. Look you can be a woman but you can't be black, be sensible here please."
They would because they're unexamined. I (who actually hold the most extreme tolerant view) would say, yes, you can identify as black. That doesn't mean you don't have privilege, because people see you as white, and that's something you can't change. Even if you alter your skin-tone somehow, even if you have cosmetic surgery now, you still grew up with privilege, and you should be treated as someone who has privilege. So you are not counted as black for the purposes of measures like Affirmative Action meant to make up for privilege. I would even go so far as to say, altering your skin tone would have the result of people treating you better than you deserve, assuming you are underprivileged when you are actually overprivileged, and is a slight, so don't do it. I would even say, still, don't culturally appropriate, because when you apparently steal items, it is about the wrong perceived, it is about the harm it causes to black people seeing a white person doing that, so don't do it, unless you're around people who understand and accept that you are black (which, they ought to, so in a perfect world this is just, don't culturally appropriate around strangers who still see a white person).

And if they're genuine, and just want to be called black, because they feel black, they're happy with this.

If they are not genuine, and wanted to be treated as if they do not have privilege when they do, they will not be happy with this.

Your correct assessment that most people would be reactive and reveal their cognitive dissonance here is a sad example of unexamining imbeciles making everything worse.

But if you wanted the very best argument against transgenderism, I will offer the best one. Feel free to reproduce it. I want the other side to have the best ammunition.

It is simply to say, if you are male, that you identify as a transgender man. At that point the reactive, unexamined imbeciles will say, no you're not, and at that point, you can say, "So, some things are what they are, and not what they identify as? No freakin' way!"

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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #9

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:47 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:12 pm"Oh, well, erm. Look you can be a woman but you can't be black, be sensible here please."
They would because they're unexamined. I (who actually hold the most extreme tolerant view) would say, yes, you can identify as black. That doesn't mean you don't have privilege, because people see you as white, and that's something you can't change. Even if you alter your skin-tone somehow, even if you have cosmetic surgery now, you still grew up with privilege, and you should be treated as someone who has privilege.
This is fascinating, so if one is not "black" then they are privileged? what does that actually mean? seems like stereotyping.
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:47 pm So you are not counted as black for the purposes of measures like Affirmative Action meant to make up for privilege. I would even go so far as to say, altering your skin tone would have the result of people treating you better than you deserve, assuming you are underprivileged when you are actually overprivileged, and is a slight, so don't do it. I would even say, still, don't culturally appropriate, because when you apparently steal items, it is about the wrong perceived, it is about the harm it causes to black people seeing a white person doing that, so don't do it, unless you're around people who understand and accept that you are black (which, they ought to, so in a perfect world this is just, don't culturally appropriate around strangers who still see a white person).
Well just as you speak of "white privilege" there are those who speak of "male privilege", so does your argument not apply in that case too?
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:47 pm And if they're genuine, and just want to be called black, because they feel black, they're happy with this.

If they are not genuine, and wanted to be treated as if they do not have privilege when they do, they will not be happy with this.

Your correct assessment that most people would be reactive and reveal their cognitive dissonance here is a sad example of unexamining imbeciles making everything worse.

But if you wanted the very best argument against transgenderism, I will offer the best one. Feel free to reproduce it. I want the other side to have the best ammunition.

It is simply to say, if you are male, that you identify as a transgender man. At that point the reactive, unexamined imbeciles will say, no you're not, and at that point, you can say, "So, some things are what they are, and not what they identify as? No freakin' way!"
A term I hear a lot when this subject is discussed is "identify as", not really sure I understand what that means if it does even have a meaning.
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Re: Amazon workers quit over sale of book framing transgender identity as mental illness

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:26 amThis is fascinating, so if one is not "black" then they are privileged?
If one is the dominant race, the one with power, in this case white, it's impossible to grow up unaffected by that power. I grew up poor. I went to mostly black elementary and middle schools. I was beaten up every day by black kids. At one point, they broke my leg and weren't punished. I still have pain in it, because it wasn't a clean break. I have privilege, they do not. Privilege is not cancelled out by any number of unfortunate things happening.

It's tough to wrap your head around, but (this is unlikely to the point of impossibility, but to illustrate) even if the sum total result of the system is that you are poorer and have less than every single black person, you still have privilege and they do not, because only one of the parts of that sum total was an injustice, and it went in your favour.

Complaining that you have less than a particular black person and saying that invalidates privilege or that you don't have any privilege is like being a thief and saying there is no injustice because you don't have the thing you stole anymore. It's not exactly like being a thief because this is not yet considered a crime, but it ought to be.

This is actually a more extreme view than mere intersectionality because I absolutely would take from poor whites to give to rich blacks, but I believe it's more consistent. Which instances of unfairness are simply life, and which are injustice? You address the ones that are injustice, and those alone.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:26 amWell just as you speak of "white privilege" there are those who speak of "male privilege", so does your argument not apply in that case too?
Despite the fact that I feel male privilege is a minuscule issue compared to white privilege, there should be more scrutiny about whether people are really trans or whether they're just trying to get something out of it. Handing out transitions to people who aren't actually trans has consequences, both to that person, and to society as a whole.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:26 amA term I hear a lot when this subject is discussed is "identify as", not really sure I understand what that means if it does even have a meaning.
A simple way to explain it is that it is possible to have a mind-body mismatch so severe that it feels one is born in the wrong body, exactly the same as you or I would feel if suddenly someone extracted our brains and put them in the bodies of females. I don't think I'd care so much and I'd eventually just adapt, I might even like it if my new body was beautiful enough, but I also understand that some people would completely reject the new reality, and some people are born into that wrong reality, and if treating them as the gender they are rather than the gender of the body they happened to get, will help them, then I should.

I also think there's a difference between feeling that you're black when you're not, and feeling that you're female when you were born in the body of a male. I don't think it can cause the same kind of rejection of reality to be the wrong race. I'm not even sure it would cause the same rejection to be born as the wrong species. If I was a bird, I would be a bird, and that would be my reality.

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