Murder

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nobspeople
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Murder

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Murder

Post #11

Post by JoeyKnothead »

tam wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:59 pm Peace to you!
nobspeople wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
No. First of all, that would be harming someone else (as well as causing pain to all of their loved ones); that would be going against love (the law from God, the gift that He and His Son gave me); and of course that would be going against the teaching and example and command from my Lord and from my God (love even your enemies). And of course I do not have the right (or the desire) to do something like that.


Peace again to you.
"Love even your enemies"?

I'm curious to know what enemies might be worthy of hate.

I don't wish to set examples that might color a picture you don't represent.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

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tam
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Re: Murder

Post #12

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:59 pm
tam wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:59 pm Peace to you!
nobspeople wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
No. First of all, that would be harming someone else (as well as causing pain to all of their loved ones); that would be going against love (the law from God, the gift that He and His Son gave me); and of course that would be going against the teaching and example and command from my Lord and from my God (love even your enemies). And of course I do not have the right (or the desire) to do something like that.


Peace again to you.
"Love even your enemies"?

I'm curious to know what enemies might be worthy of hate.

I don't wish to set examples that might color a picture you don't represent.
I don't know of any. Not much room for hate in "Love God with your whole heart, mind, body; love your neighbor as yourself; love one another as Christ has loved us; love also your enemies". I'm pretty sure that covers all the bases. Who is left?


Peace again to you!

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Re: Murder

Post #13

Post by JoeyKnothead »

tam wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:08 am Peace to you,
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:59 pm
tam wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:59 pm Peace to you!
nobspeople wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
No. First of all, that would be harming someone else (as well as causing pain to all of their loved ones); that would be going against love (the law from God, the gift that He and His Son gave me); and of course that would be going against the teaching and example and command from my Lord and from my God (love even your enemies). And of course I do not have the right (or the desire) to do something like that.


Peace again to you.
"Love even your enemies"?

I'm curious to know what enemies might be worthy of hate.

I don't wish to set examples that might color a picture you don't represent.
I don't know of any. Not much room for hate in "Love God with your whole heart, mind, body; love your neighbor as yourself; love one another as Christ has loved us; love also your enemies". I'm pretty sure that covers all the bases. Who is left?


Peace again to you!
Never a hateful word, a hateful breath, a hateful thought. Does your hair hate? Tell me your hair hates and I won't fuss about it. With all respect, and I ain't offering a candy bar, but I love you.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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tam
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Re: Murder

Post #14

Post by tam »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #13]

Love you too Joey, and thank you!


Peace again to you and to your household, as my dear Lord gives peace,
your servant and friend, and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Murder

Post #15

Post by tam »

Peace again to you!

Okay, dear Joey (and anyone else), I have to elaborate just a little more.

Love is what my Lord teaches. Not just by His command, but also by His example. Serving, healing, giving His life, speaking truth, showing mercy, etc. Love is also a gift that He (and so also His Father) gave to me. Not just their love for me (and others), but love is the gift that I received when I was anointed with holy spirit. (An anointing always comes with a gift.) Christ gives gifts as He knows are needed, and so as always, dear Joey and anyone else, all credit is due to my dear Lord, who not only gave this gift, but loved me first, which in turn compels/begets love from me (for Him, for my Father in heaven, and so also for my fellow man.)


And Joey, you have been very kind to me, including in moments where it has truly made my day and refreshed me (like a cool drink of water).


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Murder

Post #16

Post by nobspeople »

tam wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:59 pm Peace to you!
nobspeople wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
No. First of all, that would be harming someone else (as well as causing pain to all of their loved ones); that would be going against love (the law from God, the gift that He and His Son gave me); and of course that would be going against the teaching and example and command from my Lord and from my God (love even your enemies). And of course I do not have the right (or the desire) to do something like that.


Peace again to you.
It's worth noting, here, that not all christians share the idea of 'god is love'. Some of them claim, while using the same book as you, that god is hate.
That's not to say if god hates christians can't love.

There seems to be a fear of ultimately getting caught (aka going to hell) with christians (why else would they give their lives to an invisible being that can't be shown to be true and commands things directly and tells them to live only by faith?).
So it seems believers that proclaim 'love' are doing here is hiding behind what they're told:
"Don't kill or you'll be judged and, if not repentant, you'll go to hell."
"OK, so instead, we'll 'love'!"
To me that doesn't seem very sincere - almost insulting in a sense.
There's a sense of 'being better' than everyone else (most times highly unjustified).
But then again, christianity is a selfish belief system, so maybe insincerity shouldn't be come of as a surprise?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Murder

Post #17

Post by tam »

Peace to you.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:44 pm
tam wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:59 pm Peace to you!
nobspeople wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm Would you murder someone if you were guaranteed (through whatever means appropriate to you) that you could get away with it?
Why or why not?
No. First of all, that would be harming someone else (as well as causing pain to all of their loved ones); that would be going against love (the law from God, the gift that He and His Son gave me); and of course that would be going against the teaching and example and command from my Lord and from my God (love even your enemies). And of course I do not have the right (or the desire) to do something like that.


Peace again to you.
It's worth noting, here, that not all christians share the idea of 'god is love'. Some of them claim, while using the same book as you, that god is hate.
No Christian claims God is hate.

There seems to be a fear of ultimately getting caught (aka going to hell) with christians

Some people (from any walk of life) do what is right because they fear consequences (hence laws are required for those who would otherwise break the law - or - for those who do not know right from wrong); some people do what is right out of love for the One giving the command ("The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me."); some people (from any walk of life) do what is right NATURALLY, showing that the requirements of the law are written upon their heart.

(why else would they give their lives to an invisible being that can't be shown to be true and commands things directly and tells them to live only by faith?).
Truth and Love. Because that One HAS been shown to be true (to them), because they know (and/or believe) that He and His Son are true and real and faithful (and loved them first), because they LOVE that One (and His Son).

So it seems believers that proclaim 'love' are doing here is hiding behind what they're told:
"Don't kill or you'll be judged and, if not repentant, you'll go to hell."
"OK, so instead, we'll 'love'!"
I have never been told "don't kill or you'll be judged and, if not repentant, you'll go to hell."

I have, however, been told to love (God with my whole heart,mind, soul; my neighbor as myself, my brothers/sisters as Christ has loved us, and even my enemies.)

I have been told that love is the law from God, from the beginning. That love (indeed the two most important commandments) does not commit murder, or bear false witness against one's neighbor (which would include enemies), etc. Love does not turn a blind eye to someone in need.

To me that doesn't seem very sincere - almost insulting in a sense.
It seems to me that if you are redefining what someone said so that it seems insulting, then wouldn't you be the one dealing yourself the insult?
There's a sense of 'being better' than everyone else (most times highly unjustified).
Just because someone said they would not commit murder even if they could get away with it?

??



Peace again to you.

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Re: Murder

Post #18

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to tam in post #17]
No Christian claims God is hate.
Good to know we can judge the 'christian-ness' of others. But you might want to tell these folks
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... ist-church
Some people (from any walk of life) do what is right because they fear consequences (hence laws are required for those who would otherwise break the law - or - for those who do not know right from wrong)
Yes, but as this is a christian-themed site we're speaking about christians. Thus, christians do 'what's right' out of fear of going to hell. Which makes sense - who wants to go there?
Fear is a great motivating factor though I struggle to believe fearing hell and, thus, accepting christ, is sincere (when speaking of 'loving god').
some people do what is right out of love for the One giving the command ("The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.")
Perhaps at some point, but not initially. It's out of fear of going to hell, which is insincere.
Truth and Love.
That's nothing but a happy feeling smoke screen. But, like anything, one can convince themselves to believe it to be...'true'.
I have never been told "don't kill or you'll be judged and, if not repentant, you'll go to hell."
Maybe not directly, but it has been heavily implied if you've been to any christian church ever. It's the cornerstone of your faith: heaven or hell. It's what you're indoctrinated into, many times, at a young age. You can say 'No no that never happened' but you'd be lying to yourself.
The ultimate goal of a christian is to get to heaven and thus, avoid hell. Everything else that happens in between being born and dying and being judged is part of the experience, yes. But, as a christian, you're ultimate goal isn't to 'love your neighbor' or 'support your mission' or whatever nonsensical tripe you've been taught - it's about heaven. And getting to heaven is avoiding hell.
It seems to me that if you are redefining what someone said so that it seems insulting, then wouldn't you be the one dealing yourself the insult?
I simply said that seems almost insulting and insincere. You brought up 'redefining' so that's your cross to carry here (and a poor attempt at christian word play).
Just because someone said they would not commit murder even if they could get away with it?
What?!? You're confusing yourself again. Kindly read what's there and not what you want to be there. It will cause you a lot less confusion.

At any rate, thanks for... answering (?)…the question... (such as it was).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Murder

Post #19

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:28 pm [Replying to tam in post #17]
No Christian claims God is hate.
Good to know we can judge the 'christian-ness' of others. But you might want to tell these folks
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... ist-church
I'm sure they've been told.
Some people (from any walk of life) do what is right because they fear consequences (hence laws are required for those who would otherwise break the law - or - for those who do not know right from wrong)
Yes, but as this is a christian-themed site we're speaking about christians. Thus, christians do 'what's right' out of fear of going to hell. Which makes sense - who wants to go there?
Yes, this is a Christian-themed site, but as far as I know, I am the only Christian who responded on this thread... and THIS Christian gave you a completely different answer than the one you are espousing.

some people do what is right out of love for the One giving the command ("The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.")
Perhaps at some point, but not initially. It's out of fear of going to hell, which is insincere.
Are you just trying to say that doing something out of fear is insincere? Or are you saying that doing something out of fear, while claiming to do something out of love, is insincere (that is what I originally thought you were saying).

Truth and Love.
That's nothing but a happy feeling smoke screen. But, like anything, one can convince themselves to believe it to be...'true'.
I don't think you can speak for me, nobspeople.
I have never been told "don't kill or you'll be judged and, if not repentant, you'll go to hell."
Maybe not directly, but it has been heavily implied if you've been to any christian church ever.
Ah... you mean being told by other people. Well, sure, I've heard that... but so what? Just because someone else says something does not mean it is true; sure doesn't mean I should believe them, and certainly not over Christ.
It's the cornerstone of your faith: heaven or hell.


The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
It's what you're indoctrinated into, many times, at a young age. You can say 'No no that never happened' but you'd be lying to yourself.
Religion was not a big thing for me growing up. Did go to some Sunday school classes, etc. But my Lord is the One who taught me to question what those preachers were saying. That stuck with me. I am not one to buck authority (a little more now that I am in my forties, lol), but with regard to religion, I never accepted something just because some religion or religious leader said so.

I went to a Catholic High school (not because we were catholic, but because my mother thought the school system was better than the public system at the time), and there also I knew their beliefs were not mine.

That doesn't mean that some things did not seep in (heaven and hell depictions from the media, think the movie "Ghost" and the like). I did believe that hell existed for most of my life, but when I started seeking TRUTH - the truth of God - and He directed me to His Son, then I learned to just listen to Him. To build my faith solely on Him. Usually that means tearing everything down - right down to the cornerstone (Christ) - and then letting Christ rebuild your faith back up on him (the truth).

So back to your question: you did not ask, did you ever only not do 'wrong' because you feared the consequences? Children often learn right from wrong by way of rules (and sometimes consequences). That does not mean that we spend the rest of our lives only doing right because we fear punishment if we get caught doing something wrong.

Your question asked about right now. Not that I could see myself as a child ever murdering someone (if I could have) even if I could get away with it. One time as a child (young child), I accidentally stole a hot rod (pepperoni stick). I thought my grandparents had paid for it, but they never even realized I was holding one. When they commented on it in the car, I was so upset that they turned around and took me back to the store so it could be paid for. Later as a teen, I stole a piece of bubble gum (despite possible consequences of getting caught), as a challenge. After that, my friend and I dared one another to steal some pens in a store, which we did... but we got caught. (I mean, obviously we got caught, we stared at the pens and then the store mirrors and the pens and then mirrors for like 15 minutes before daring to grab them and leave). The security guard never really called us out, but he stopped us and gave us a bit of a lecture on stealing and consequences (enough that I knew he knew), and then let us go. That was scary enough that I never did it again. I didn't want to be in trouble with the law (of the land)... or worse, with my mother, lol. Those are not the reasons I would not steal NOW though.

You will note that fear of hell never entered into either of those situations.


And none of that changes the answer that I gave to your OP question. I gave you a truthful answer. Whether you accept it or not.


I mean, its like asking 'would you cheat on your spouse if you knew you could get away with it'. Some would answer yes. Some would answer NO. Why? Because they LOVE their spouse. It would not even be in them to betray their spouse like that, because LOVE does not do that. Some people even continue to do what might have made their spouse (or parent) proud of them, after their spouse or parent dies... again out of love for their spouse (or parent).

Fear can cause people to do something. But so can love. And it is love - not fear - that never fails.

The ultimate goal of a christian is to get to heaven and thus, avoid hell.
That is not true (not for me, and if not for me, then not for some others either). I don't even believe in 'hell' (the traditional doctrine of a place of eternal torment; there is no such thing). My Lord has even taught me that there are non-Christians who receive eternal life.

My ultimate goal is to serve my Lord, and my Father, out of love. I love because I was loved FIRST.

There are rewards that come with that, but those are not the reason I sought to know the truth of God, that is not the reason I sought and followed my dear Lord. I wanted to know what was true, where God wanted me to be, and what I should be doing.

Everything else that happens in between being born and dying and being judged is part of the experience, yes. But, as a christian, you're ultimate goal isn't to 'love your neighbor' or 'support your mission' or whatever nonsensical tripe you've been taught - it's about heaven. And getting to heaven is avoiding hell.
See above.

It seems to me that if you are redefining what someone said so that it seems insulting, then wouldn't you be the one dealing yourself the insult?
I simply said that seems almost insulting and insincere. You brought up 'redefining' so that's your cross to carry here (and a poor attempt at christian word play).
I brought that up because you have to redefine what I said in order to come to your conclusions about what it 'seems'. As you have done above, in telling me what my goal must be (even when I state something else), by telling me what I must actually feel (even when I have stated something else).

Just because someone said they would not commit murder even if they could get away with it?
What?!? You're confusing yourself again. Kindly read what's there and not what you want to be there. It will cause you a lot less confusion.

At any rate, thanks for... answering (?)…the question... (such as it was).

I did answer the question. You just do not accept the answer.


Peace again to you.

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Re: Murder

Post #20

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to tam in post #19]
I'm sure they've been told.
And yet, that doesn't change the fact that your opinion of them (not being christian) means zero to those they assault with 'god's hate'.
I am the only Christian who responded on this thread... and THIS Christian gave you a completely different answer than the one you are espousing.
I was a christian for decades. I've been to countless christian churches, spoke to and with countless church leaders, been to bible studies, fasted, participated in more communions than I care to try to count and can tell you you're wrong if you say people don't become christian out of fear. There's no other reason to devote one's life, time, energy and money (oh yeah - that money) to an invisible man in the sky unless you fear going to hell. Over time, you may grow to 'love' that invisible worthless magician, but initially, you become christian out of fear.
Are you just trying to say that doing something out of fear is insincere?
I'm saying if you join up with god and claim it to be out of love, not only is that insincere but also a lie.
I don't think you can speak for me, nobspeople.
Think what you want
Ah... you mean being told by other people. Well, sure, I've heard that... but so what?
So what? You've been deceived to devoting your life to 'christ' out of fear and that's not wrong? I guess if the ends justify the means.
The cornerstone of my faith is Christ.
And christ saves you from hell. Thus, the FEAR of hell is the ultimate cornerstone of your faith.
I don't even believe in 'hell' (the traditional doctrine of a place of eternal torment; there is no such thing).
Ah. That makes sense. Become a christian then happily 'not believe' in hell in order to avoid it. This makes your responses make so much more sense now. Pickin-n-choosin what to believe.

So you wouldn't murder because....?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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