Veganism

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

Moderator: Moderators

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 817 times

Veganism

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

First off, I'm all for those who wish to be vegetarian and live that life; I'm working on that myself. Likewise, I understand those that want to be vegan to a degree.

The past holiday, we were at my sister-in-law's with various family. Two of them were her kids - my niece and nephew. My niece, which was once a vegetarian, is not a pescatarian. My nephew is a relatively new vegan.

If anyone is a vegan, can they please comment on the below scenario and let me know if it's normal or not:

My sister-in-law was placing the turkey on the table next to her son, my nephew. A small piece of turkey fell off the plate and landed on his roll (it must be noted that, most of what my vegan nephew eats is bread, 3-4 veggies, a specific soda and, at times, a mushroom or two). This day, all he ate was bread and water. After the turkey hit his roll, he refused to not only eat the roll, but made someone else take it off his plate (he will be 18 in a few months and seems to be relatively of sound mind). I found that fact that he made such a deal of the cooked meat touching his roll such an issue.
A couple months back, we all went to the zoo and he refused to touch any animal in the petting zoo area, calling it 'gross' (the animal in question was a small goat that was relatively adorable).

As I don't personally know any other vegans, for discussion:

is it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?

I found it quite strange and wonder if he's actually researching the vegan lifestyle as his food intake doesn't seem healthy vegan aside from the 'no animal products' idea.

Thoughts?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Veganism

Post #2

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:41 amis it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?
I find that it's within the normal range, because all people do when they adopt any morality is make it into morality. That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others. The kid probably doesn't conceptualise it like that at all, but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.

I stopped being vegetarian mainly because I got very sick from it. I saw visual auras despite taking supplemental B12, I was constantly in a fugue, constantly tired, weak, and constantly contracting illness. It was probable that my IQ was so low I could have only barely gotten into Mensa. My grades suffered, and I tried to study more to make up for it but I couldn't concentrate. When I remember that time, I remember it was more usual for me to be sick or getting over it than healthy.

I also came to the conclusion I was not doing the right thing since more mice die under the plough for enough vegetarian material to feed me than cows die for enough steaks to feed me. My thing with meat now is that I don't throw it away. If it's slightly rotten I give it to the dog. If it's somehow very rotten I compost it. Otherwise I eat it, even if it fell on the floor. I'm the opposite of your nephew which is why I envy him. He is morality. I epitomise evil. Frankly, I don't even believe I'm human in that sense.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 7144
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 1274 times
Been thanked: 1504 times

Re: Veganism

Post #3

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:41 amis it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?
I find that it's within the normal range, because all people do when they adopt any morality is make it into morality. That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others. The kid probably doesn't conceptualise it like that at all, but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.

I stopped being vegetarian mainly because I got very sick from it. I saw visual auras despite taking supplemental B12, I was constantly in a fugue, constantly tired, weak, and constantly contracting illness. It was probable that my IQ was so low I could have only barely gotten into Mensa. My grades suffered, and I tried to study more to make up for it but I couldn't concentrate. When I remember that time, I remember it was more usual for me to be sick or getting over it than healthy.

I also came to the conclusion I was not doing the right thing since more mice die under the plough for enough vegetarian material to feed me than cows die for enough steaks to feed me. My thing with meat now is that I don't throw it away. If it's slightly rotten I give it to the dog. If it's somehow very rotten I compost it. Otherwise I eat it, even if it fell on the floor. I'm the opposite of your nephew which is why I envy him. He is morality. I epitomise evil. Frankly, I don't even believe I'm human in that sense.
nobspeople asked about his nephew's refusal to eat bread touched by turkey meat and you refer to your inability to qualify for Mensa. What exactly is the connection?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Veganism

Post #4

Post by Purple Knight »

Tcg wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:22 am
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:41 amis it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?
I find that it's within the normal range, because all people do when they adopt any morality is make it into morality. That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others. The kid probably doesn't conceptualise it like that at all, but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.
nobspeople asked about his nephew's refusal to eat bread touched by turkey meat and you refer to your inability to qualify for Mensa. What exactly is the connection?
Clipped my own post for you. The rest is just afterthought.

I think it's a relevant afterthought that I tried being vegetarian and didn't like it for a number of reasons, but to each his own.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 7144
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 1274 times
Been thanked: 1504 times

Re: Veganism

Post #5

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:18 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:22 am
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:41 amis it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?
I find that it's within the normal range, because all people do when they adopt any morality is make it into morality. That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others. The kid probably doesn't conceptualise it like that at all, but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.
nobspeople asked about his nephew's refusal to eat bread touched by turkey meat and you refer to your inability to qualify for Mensa. What exactly is the connection?
Clipped my own post for you. The rest is just afterthought.

I think it's a relevant afterthought that I tried being vegetarian and didn't like it for a number of reasons, but to each his own.
This doesn't explain the connection between your inability to qualify for Mensa and another's refusal to eat bread touched by turkey meat. The O.P. after all asks about the later and not the former.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 817 times

Re: Veganism

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #2]
That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others.
An interesting point. Surely, this happen to some (many?). Maybe it would have been more of a statement than anything else. But, knowing my nephew, he's not that deep - he's only 17.
That said, there may be something in this worth watching in the future.
As I said, his sister was vegetarian for about 5 years and never had such an issue. But different people, different minds and all that I suspect.
but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.
Can you clarify this statement? Specifically the bolded section, as to how that's (whatever 'that' is) beneficial through evolution?
If it's slightly rotten I give it to the dog.
Surely, Doggie deserves better than slightly rotten meat!?!?!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 817 times

Re: Veganism

Post #7

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:22 am
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:11 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:41 amis it normal for a vegan to not only eat a piece of bread that touched cooked food, but insist someone else else removed the 'contaminated' bread from his plate?
I find that it's within the normal range, because all people do when they adopt any morality is make it into morality. That is, it stops being about actually doing the right thing and becomes about being better than others. The kid probably doesn't conceptualise it like that at all, but that's what's being evinced and that's what humans evolved to do because that's what's beneficial.

I stopped being vegetarian mainly because I got very sick from it. I saw visual auras despite taking supplemental B12, I was constantly in a fugue, constantly tired, weak, and constantly contracting illness. It was probable that my IQ was so low I could have only barely gotten into Mensa. My grades suffered, and I tried to study more to make up for it but I couldn't concentrate. When I remember that time, I remember it was more usual for me to be sick or getting over it than healthy.

I also came to the conclusion I was not doing the right thing since more mice die under the plough for enough vegetarian material to feed me than cows die for enough steaks to feed me. My thing with meat now is that I don't throw it away. If it's slightly rotten I give it to the dog. If it's somehow very rotten I compost it. Otherwise I eat it, even if it fell on the floor. I'm the opposite of your nephew which is why I envy him. He is morality. I epitomise evil. Frankly, I don't even believe I'm human in that sense.
nobspeople asked about his nephew's refusal to eat bread touched by turkey meat and you refer to your inability to qualify for Mensa. What exactly is the connection?


Tcg
I grabbed a bit of what I thought they meant - we shall see. Though, I ignored the 'not being human' part. My time is limited :P
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Veganism

Post #8

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:32 pmSurely, Doggie deserves better than slightly rotten meat!?!?!
Well she eats it and doesn't have a problem. I'm talking about just starting to have that slightly funky smell, not growing mould or turning colours or anything.
nobspeople wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:32 pmCan you clarify this statement? Specifically the bolded section, as to how that's (whatever 'that' is) beneficial through evolution?
My hypothesis is that moral groups survived better than selfish groups, so groups that elevated the most moral individuals also survived better. Thus, "Wow, how moral he is, he should have every advantage, he should be elevated," is sort of in our genes. It's not terribly unlikely that people also evolved to evince extreme morality to take advantage of this response. I think they did, and there's every point of evidence for it, your story included.

I'm not maligning your nephew and suggesting he thinks he's doing this. I'm suggesting that people all do this without knowing it.

[Replying to Tcg in post #5]

I think my extremely negative experience on the vegetarian diet is relevant enough to include it. I suffered both physically and mentally. If you don't think so, you're welcome to issue an infraction for relevancy and I wouldn't object. I don't think there's much point in inviting me to defend relevancy. If you don't think it's relevant, it's not.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 817 times

Re: Veganism

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #8]
Well she eats it and doesn't have a problem. I'm talking about just starting to have that slightly funky smell, not growing mould or turning colours or anything.
Well, that good!!
My hypothesis is that moral groups survived better than selfish groups, so groups that elevated the most moral individuals also survived better. Thus, "Wow, how moral he is, he should have every advantage, he should be elevated," is sort of in our genes. It's not terribly unlikely that people also evolved to evince extreme morality to take advantage of this response. I think they did, and there's every point of evidence for it, your story included.
There are people, I've seen, that suggest morality is a survival mechanism. It makes some sense, but morality is highly subjective and changes over time and location and culture. So while it may be a small part of the species survival, it seems it's elevated unnaturally.
I'm not maligning your nephew and suggesting he thinks he's doing this. I'm suggesting that people all do this without knowing it.
No worries - I didn't take it that way :ok:
I think my extremely negative experience on the vegetarian diet is relevant enough to include it.
Relevant or not, it was an appreciated response and added to the discussion. For which, I thank you.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: Veganism

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:12 amThere are people, I've seen, that suggest morality is a survival mechanism. It makes some sense, but morality is highly subjective and changes over time and location and culture. So while it may be a small part of the species survival, it seems it's elevated unnaturally.
It is, but (at least, I think) the mechanism by which it became that way is simply part of that survival mechanism. People will be as moral as they can while society flourishes to attain a better position in that society. If you get more brownie points for adding more steps to the ritual, do it, because points = status = more survival, more offspring, you get the idea. The natural way this gets pulled back is when societies collapse. It becomes about getting food, not getting points. We might be at peak morality now.

Post Reply