Bad language

[Rose2020]

I glanced at the National Comedy Awards last night but a few minutes was ample. I couldn't believe the bad language and crudity. One successful actress who has such a sweet face in my view came on stage to give an award. She spoke and expressed the most crude sentence, using the F word. Even hardened fellow comedians and audience were visibly shocked. I switched off, having lost all respect for her.

Why? Do men, let alone women, think swearing is funny? Oh how they downgrade sex into the most soulless, miserable act. The hysterically amused audience seem so well pleased.

It says somewhere in the Bible do not use the same tongue to curse that you were given to worship our Lord God with. I know Christians who swear using the F word. It cannot be ever be right. My biggest distress is hearing Jesus Christ's name used in terrible ways. Yet it goes unchallenged. Even the word 'mother', most precious of words, has been corrupted.

Call me old fashioned but I really do despair.
However, I have lots of good, civilised Christian friends who would never use foul language. I choose to associate with them. I refuse to go along with crude people.

[Miles]

So Alex
Where and from whom are the best guidelines for living?
If not from God, through the Bible.

Are you implying that those who don't accept the Bible and its particular god don't have the best (an incredibly subjective term) guidelines? That Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. cannot have equally good guidelines for living? (My bet is that you don't even know what their guidelines for living are.) That secularists, who base their ethics on human faculties such as logic, empathy, reason, and the notions of good and bad cannot have equally good guidelines for living?

Assuming you define "best guidelines" as morals, then considering the immoral things the god of Abraham has done, such as condoning the owning of other humans (slavery), and even beating them as long as they don't die within "a day or two" (Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV & Exodus 21:20-21 ESV); and demanding that practicing homosexual men be killed (Leviticus 20:13 ESV); and condoning the killing of innocent women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3 ESV) I don't think your god has anything to brag about as far as being a moral example. To me he comes across as a hypocritical thug. In fact, he should have damned himself to hell eons ago.

Or do you agree that slavery, killing one's slave, killing gays, and killing innocent women and children are all moral?


.

[alexxcJRO]

So Alex
Where and from whom are the best guidelines for living?
If not from God, through the Bible.

Let's not change the subject!

More food for thought.

I assume Christianity is true for sake of argumentation.

A. Q: Will a moral atheist be saved?

Let's look at the bible:
"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."(John 3:16)

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith”and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."(Ephesians 2:8-10)

"20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."(James 2:20-24)

"6 Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’"(John 14:6)

"24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
(John 8:24)

P1.An moral atheist is an individual that does not believe in certain god or gods(in this ex: Yahweh-Jesus) but has lead a good, moral life.
P2.It is clear from the Bible that believing in and having faith in God(Yahweh- Jesus), is required in order to become saved.
C1: A moral atheist does not believe in God(Yahweh-Jesus), does not have faith therefore he is not saved.


B. Lake of fire is a place of eternal conscious torment and punishment for the devil, his fallen angels and for the men who not saved.
"11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."(Revelation 20:11-12)

"9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever."(Revelation 4:9)

"28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

"7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever." (Revelation 15:7)

"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

"10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.""(Revelation 14:10-11)

"41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’" (Matthew 25:41)

"46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."(Matthew 25:46)

"13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever."(Jude 13)

"9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)


“50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(Matthew 13:50)

“43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.”(Mark 9:43)

“48where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:48)

P1.God(Yahweh-Jesus) is eternal, lives forever and exists beyond the infinity. (Statement in the bible:" God, who lives for ever and ever." This demonstrates that the phrase "for ever and ever" means without end, eternal, infinite.)
P2.Lake of fire is a place of eternal conscious torment and punishment for the devil, his fallen angels and for the men who are not saved; a place of darkness reserved; banishment away from God(Yahweh-Jesus)'s presence; a place where "the fire that burn them never goes out", the worms that eat them do not die and the smoke of their torment rises up ‘for ever and ever’.
C2: So because we see the use of the terms "for ever and ever" in description of the Lake of Fire and both the description of God(Yahweh-Jesus) demonstrates that indeed Lake of Fire is a place of eternal conscious torment for those who are not saved.
(Even if the eternal torment is only psychological it’s still a punishment inflicted upon the devil, fallen angels and those that are not saved)

C. Let's take for example Gandhi:

Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi was the preeminent leader of the Indian independence movement in British-ruled India. Employing nonviolent civil disobedience, Gandhi led India to independence and inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world. Gandhi dedicated his life to the wider purpose of discovering truth, or Satya and summarized his beliefs by saying "Truth (Satya) is God". Gandhi said about Jesus: "It was more than I could believe that Jesus was the only incarnate son of God, and that only he who believed in Him would have everlasting life. If God could have sons, all of us were His sons. If Jesus was like God, or God Himself, then all men were like God and could be God Himself. My reason was not ready to believe literally that Jesus by his death and by his blood redeemed the sins of the world. Metaphorically there might be some truth in it. Again, according to Christianity only human beings had souls, and not other living beings, for whom death meant complete extinction; while I held a contrary belief. I could accept Jesus as a martyr, an embodiment of sacrifice, and a divine teacher, but not as the most perfect man ever born"

P1.Gandhi was an atheist when it comes to Christianity. Did not believed Jesus was God.
P2.Gandhi lead a good, moral life.
C3: Therefore it is fair to say he is a perfect candidate for a moral atheist in respect to Christianity.


From C1, C2 and C3 we can conclude that our moral atheist: Gandhi will be punish to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire together with the devil, fallen angels.

So Gandhi(a man who taught about peace, non-violence, tolerance, love; a man who meditated, fasted extensively and dedicated all his life in search of the truth and God; a man who tried and to some extent made the world a better place) who because failed to believe and understand the story of the bible, of Jesus, will be punish to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire together with the devil, fallen angels.
This kind of disproves the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-perfectly good God.

Enjoy!

[Rose2020]

Hi
Well, no. A moral atheist will not be saved. This is absolutely clear through Christ in the Bible, as you yourself quote above.

Many reasons can be cited. Chief among these is the fact that there are no good people. Only Jesus is perfect. Even the best of us has many frailties and faults. We can never be perfect and therefore earn heaven. This is a basic understanding of following Christ's teachings.

I can only think the worst fate awaits those who know the scriptures well but who choose to reject Christ. At least others could claim ignorance, though still futile. Jesus made it clear that we have choice.

[Tcg]

I can only think the worst fate awaits those who know the scriptures well but who choose to reject Christ.

In many cases people who know the Bible well come to see the flaws in the Bible and therefore don't accept the claims it makes on Jesus' behalf. It isn't a rejection of Christ, but rather a realization that there is no reason to consider the Bible valid.

As far as attaining heaven, absent verifiable evidence there is no reason to accept such a place exists and of course no reason to worry about it. There's a meme around that states something like, "Apparently I'm going to hell in every religion." I suppose most people are going to hell based on some religion. Again there is no reason to worry about it as there is no reason to believe that any are true.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #15]


That was how God's commands and laws were interpreted and carried out.

The primary problem with this is that it is logical yet not admitted to by those in these modern times who use the bible as if it was relevant to said modern times.

Folk still allow themselves to be offended by the sounds of certain words they - for unknown reason - say are 'bad'.

[tam]

Peace to you both,

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #22]

[Replying to Rose2020 in post #23]

Many people think they know what the bible 'says', and some may, but that does not mean that they understand. It certainly does not mean that they know God. It is more important what CHRIST (the Truth and Word of God) says, teaches. To know CHRIST is to know God. As for the subject that has been brought up regarding atheists, from the thread, "A Good God would not send a decent atheist to hell":

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

Just a quick summary (though greater detail in the link), there are indeed those who are not Christian who will enter into the Kingdom and receive eternal life. None of them will be atheist any longer, mind you, lol. But they may have been atheist during their lives. Some of these may be the sheep described in the sheep and the goats parable; some may be described by Paul in Romans 2, where people of the nations who do not have the law, do BY NATURE, the requirements of the law (love), and some may be those at the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead (and there would be no point in a resurrection of the dead, if everyone being resurrected was just being resurrected to be sent back to 'hell'). Note, no Christian is resurrected at the second resurrection, because all who die in Christ are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection (a thousand years earlier than the second resurrection/resurrection of the dead). Rev 20:4-6, 11-15.

**

On top of that, there is no such thing as eternal conscious torment in 'hell' or even the 'lake of fire'. But that is yet another topic ; )


Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

P1.Gandhi was an atheist when it comes to Christianity. Did not believed Jesus was God.
P2.Gandhi lead a good, moral life.
C3: Therefore it is fair to say he is a perfect candidate for a moral atheist in respect to Christianity.

Gandhi was a sexual deviant from my understanding of history.

http://www.ofmi.org/gandhis-sexual-abus ... andnieces/
https://deeshaa.org/2020/10/05/gandhi-t ... l-pervert/

[Tcg]

P1.Gandhi was an atheist when it comes to Christianity. Did not believed Jesus was God.
P2.Gandhi lead a good, moral life.
C3: Therefore it is fair to say he is a perfect candidate for a moral atheist in respect to Christianity.

Gandhi was a sexual deviant from my understanding of history.

http://www.ofmi.org/gandhis-sexual-abus ... andnieces/
https://deeshaa.org/2020/10/05/gandhi-t ... l-pervert/

And as we know, Christians have a much better record:

Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation

Afour-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than a decade while the ministry led by his family members and loyal allies failed to hold him accountable.

He used his need for massage and frequent overseas travel to hide his abusive behavior, luring victims by building trust through spiritual conversations and offering funds straight from his ministry.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... -rape.html

Tcg

[Miles]

Hi
Well, no. A moral atheist will not be saved. This is absolutely clear through Christ in the Bible, as you yourself quote above.

It might help if you identified who you were talking to when you say things like "you yourself"?

Many reasons can be cited. Chief among these is the fact that there are no good people

If this is at all relevant to being saved then how does it fit into god's/Jesus's decision to save someone? If god saves people despite not being good what relevance does your comment here have?

I can only think the worst fate awaits those who know the scriptures well but who choose to reject Christ. At least others could claim ignorance, though still futile.

And just what advantage is conferred upon the ignorant, over those who willfully reject Christ. A spot on a higher level of Hell?


..........................................

Jesus made it clear that we have choice.

And what if this choice was been presented by a nimrod preacher who did such a godawful job of presenting Christ that his audience found it more reasonable to reject the whole story? Is such a rejection their fault or that of the nimrod preacher?



.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Tcg in post #28]

No one brings Ravi up as a moral person now that we know. Christians doubt Ravi's salvation of course and condemn totally his actions. Do Hindus, or the world, disown Gandhi? Do most people know?