Who decides?

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Rose2020
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Who decides?

Post #1

Post by Rose2020 »

A young boy is in the news headlines, in the UK today. Doctors say he is dead, that the machines keeping him alive must be switched off. His parents disagree, his mother says her instinct tells her he is still alive and has a chance. His family wish to leave it to God, in whom they place their faith. Yet doctors are the trained medical experts on whom we all depend normally. An earthly court must decide - what a task!

This is a tragic dilemma. The question is, whose opinion is or should be, the right one?

My own humble opinion is that more time should be allowed, a reasonable period decided. This is a 12 year old beloved child. Patients have woken from comas before. God does work miracles, He answers sincere prayers.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #2

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:51 am A young boy is in the news headlines, in the UK today. Doctors say he is dead, that the machines keeping him alive must be switched off. His parents disagree, his mother says her instinct tells her he is still alive and has a chance. His family wish to leave it to God, in whom they place their faith. Yet doctors are the trained medical experts on whom we all depend normally. An earthly court must decide - what a task!

This is a tragic dilemma. The question is, whose opinion is or should be, the right one?

My own humble opinion is that more time should be allowed, a reasonable period decided. This is a 12 year old beloved child. Patients have woken from comas before. God does work miracles, He answers sincere prayers.
I assume that doctors have determined that there is no brain activity.
Brain death diagnosis requires presence of 3 conditions: persistent coma, absence of brainstem reflexes, and lack of ability to breathe independently. Coma is confirmed when a painful stimulus causes no eye opening, no verbal response, and no limb movement in a patient. Brainstem function is assessed by testing multiple reflexes, including pupil responsiveness to light and coughing or gagging with throat suctioning. If coma and absence of brainstem reflexes are confirmed, the final step is an apnea test—temporarily removing a patient from mechanical ventilation and observing for spontaneous breaths.
Source: Walter K. Brain Death. JAMA. 2020;324(11):1116. doi:10.1001/jama.2020.15898

God can work miracles, and that would involve bringing people back from the dead as he did with Lazarus. Hospitals work based on evidence-based medicine and not faith. If anything, I think faith would make things more expensive. Imagine leaving that kid on life-support for years longer with the hope that God might intervene. Who will pay for that, especially when there's already limited resources (beds, staff, etc.)?

As a middle ground, I would leave the patient on life-support for a few days longer after brain death diagnosis. I assume that time would be given anyways if it gets down to the courts having to decide. If no response or improvement, then I would order for the life support to discontinue.
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Re: Who decides?

Post #3

Post by Rose2020 »

Indeed it is a most difficult decision. The wisdom of Solomon is required.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #4

Post by Difflugia »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:51 amPatients have woken from comas before.
If he's dead by any medical measure, it's not a coma.
Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:48 amIndeed it is a most difficult decision. The wisdom of Solomon is required.
I don't think cutting him in half will help.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #5

Post by Rose2020 »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #4]

Well, strictly speaking, Solomon only suggested that, the threat was enough to resolve that situation.

The principle remains that while the child breathes there may be hope - doctors are not always right. I have heard of abortions being recommended after tests showed problems, refusal by the mother and a normal healthy child born. Different situation but still.

A mother's instincts along with her's and many others' prayers are a vital consideration. As a Christian I do believe in miracles, Jesus performed the greatest miracles. He also provides comfort and strength found nowhere else.

I pray that wisdom and good judgement prevails. It must be very hard for everyone involved.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #6

Post by Difflugia »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:44 amAs a Christian I do believe in miracles, Jesus performed the greatest miracles. He also provides comfort and strength found nowhere else.
If Jesus is going to perform a miracle, would removing artificial life support keep him from doing so?
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #7

Post by Rose2020 »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #6]

That remains to be seen. Jesus performs miracles of healing in many ways which we may or may not understand. Those of us who pray simply trust Him to do what is best. Once we have prayed, it is none of our concern how or when it is done. Suffice it to say, faith brings comfort.

I presume atheists such as yourself in this kind of situation just trust in science and the judgment of doctors i.e. in fellow humans?

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Re: Who decides?

Post #8

Post by Difflugia »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:40 amI presume atheists such as yourself in this kind of situation just trust in science and the judgment of doctors i.e. in fellow humans?
"Just" trust in the judgement of doctors? I suppose, in the same way that I "just" trust in mechanics to fix my car. I'd guess that trusting in a mechanic and prayer is roughly as effective as just trusting the mechanic.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #9

Post by Tcg »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:40 am Suffice it to say, faith brings comfort.
This could be tested. Not so for your claims about prayer and miracles. The problem of course is that faith can also induce a great deal of fear for those who think there may be some dire afterlife for those who don't have just the right kind of faith or place it in just the right god/gods out of the myriad options. Godchecker.com currently claims to have "almost 4000 Gods, Goddesses and Spirits" in their database. Better not pick the wrong one/ones.


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Re: Who decides?

Post #10

Post by Miles »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:51 am [post 7]

That remains to be seen. Jesus performs miracles of healing in many ways which we may or may not understand. Those of us who pray simply trust Him to do what is best. Once we have prayed, it is none of our concern how or when it is done. Suffice it to say, faith brings comfort

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
― Mark Twain


“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche


"Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence."
― Matt Dillahunty


“Faith is the death of intelligence.”

― Robert Anton Wilson,


“I had to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith. My loss”
― Immanuel Kant,


“Faith can be very very dangerous, and to deliberately implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong.”

― Richard Dawkins,


“There are those who scoff at the schoolboy, calling him frivolous and
shallow: Yet it was the schoolboy who said 'Faith is believing what you
know ain't so'.”

― Mark Twain,


“Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith! Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge!”
― Robert G. Ingersoll


“Faith, the least exclusive club on Earth, has the craftiest doorman. Every time I've stepped through its wide-open doorway, I find myself stepping out on the street again.”
― David Mitchell,


“Science adjusts its views based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.”

― Tim Minchin


“The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.”
― Richard Dawkins,


“The one thing I have absolute faith in is mankind's capacity to make things worse. No matter how bad it gets, we're all happy to screw each other over. It's enough to make me wonder if we should have let the zombies win.”
― Mira Grant,


[Amusing]
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place...”
― Joseph Goebbels


[Not about faith, but worth quoting anyway.]
“Man is manifestly not the measure of all things. This universe is shot through with mystery. The very fact of its being, and of our own, is a mystery absolute, and the only miracle worthy of the name.”
― Sam Harris,



I presume atheists such as yourself [Difflugia] in this kind of situation just trust in science and the judgment of doctors i.e. in fellow humans?
Where else would atheists put their trust?

.

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