The Handmaid's Tale

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The Handmaid's Tale

Post #1

Post by Furrowed Brow »

The Handmaid's Tale was a book by Margaret Atwood. There was a underwhelming movie in 1990 but the recent Emmy winning Hulu production was both beautiful and powerfully realised I thought. One of the best things on TV for a long time and a deserving winner, though I have friends who thought it was a little slow.

[center]Trailer for The Handmaid's Tale[/center]
In the Handmaid's Tale the United states has been taken over by a theocratic state and is now the Republic of Gilead. Atheists, gays, Jews are hung from walls. Catholic Churches are bulldozed, woman are not permitted to read. Eyes are plucked and hands cuts off. Woman - the handmaid's - are raped for the greater good. It is a highly disturbing picture of totalitarian power, misogyny and religious fundamentalism.

Unrealistic dystopia or a disturbing warning to be heeded?

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Post #21

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Wootah wrote: Who isn't an enemy of feminism?
Anyone who would like to see their daughters and granddaughters get a first class education and a rewarding career. Anyone who think the same rules should apply to both woman and men.

The world imagined in The Handmaid's Tale is a world with all the feminism sucked out where the rules for woman are oppressive and the world is run by men.
Wootah wrote:Feminism is another destructive ideology wrecking havoc on the West.
Really? :-| What do you think is being destroyed by feminism? The natural right of men being in charge?

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Post #22

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Furrowed Brow]

Your question to me indicates that you are enjoying the paranoia of the handmaid's tale. I say enjoy it as long as you can separate fact from fiction.

I'm talking about the men and women from the 1960s onwards that were sold out on enjoying rich full lives for cheap sex and abuse of each other in the name of equality.

This has led to wasted years and opportunities to enjoy life to the full as well as vast pain, resentment, jealousy, anger and bitter lives.

If any man thinks they are the equal or above a woman they are hardly a man.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #23

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Who isn't an enemy of feminism?
Those who think equality should be applied to gender. i.e. Feminists.
Feminism is another destructive ideology wrecking havoc on the West.
Abolition was destructive ideology that wrecked havoc on the West. Equality is worth it.
I'm talking about the men and women from the 1960s onwards that were sold out on enjoying rich full lives for cheap sex and abuse of each other in the name of equality.
You better explain yourself clearly on what you meant by that, because it is sounding very much like "women should get married and focus on being a housewife."

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Post #24

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Bust Nak]

Feminiism is cultural marxism. It has nothing to do with what is best for each individual woman.

Abolition has nothing to do with feminism apart from to the extent people are freer without feminism.

On the whole most men are better off being men and most women being women. Were i to have my time again as a man i certainly would like to have chosen to work harder and provide better. And i suspect most women would rather they had chosen to be mothers.
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Post #25

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Feminiism is cultural marxism. It has nothing to do with what is best for each individual woman.
Right, but it has everything to do with what is best in terms of equality with regards to gender. What is left unsaid here is that it is always best for each individual woman to be a homemaker.
Abolition has nothing to do with feminism apart from to the extent people are freer without feminism.
Who exactly is freer without feminism? Men?
On the whole most men are better off being men and most women being women.
Nowhere does feminism imply men should not be men and women should not be women. The implication here that working harder and provide the bread should be a man's job while staying at home and looking after children should be a woman's job, is why feminism is important.
Were i to have my time again as a man i certainly would like to have chosen to work harder and provide better. And i suspect most women would rather they had chosen to be mothers.
That's for them to choose, if that is what they want then go for it. The point of feminism is, people have the option to choose one way or the other without your giving them the evil eye. They even have the option to make mistakes, a man is allowed to stay at home even if it turns out it was not what is best for him, a woman is allowed to focus on her career even if it turns out that it was best for her had she stayed at home.

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Post #26

Post by Wootah »

Do you think anyone male or female who works for a salary will look back on that time on their death bed?

Work is a means to an end.
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Post #27

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Wootah wrote: Do you think anyone male or female who works for a salary will look back on that time on their death bed?

Work is a means to an end.
There is an implcation here that men are doing women a favors by stepping up to be the bread winner, leaving women the freedom to be the homemaker. If that's what you want to say then why beat about the bush? If not then do expand on what you mean and how it is relevant to feminism.

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Post #28

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Wootah wrote:I'm talking about the men and women from the 1960s onwards that were sold out on enjoying rich full lives for cheap sex and abuse of each other in the name of equality.
Abuse between men and women and mostly men of women has always been with us. but there is a case to make that thing have in some respects improved. Here is a chart for rape statistic since 1973.
Image
It is tricky to trace the root causes of any specific cultural change or even make future predictions but a sweeping statement like the one you make above offers little illumination other than register your bias.

On a quick search I could not find any statistics that makes historical comparisons for the number of sexual partners but at least anecdotally I suspect there is probably a lot more cheap sex. I don't think there is any evidence feminism has lead to the genders abusing one another. That claim falls somewhere between hyperbole and fantasy - unless that is you are able to provide a specific example of what you mean and show how that is widespread.

To be true there are statistics to show a decline in female happiness over recent decades but I think the picture is a mixed bag. And a lot is due to woman facing more stresses juggling family life and work. In this sense I think feminism made some false promises. It is extremely difficult to have it all.
Wootah wrote:This has led to wasted years and opportunities to enjoy life to the full as well as vast pain, resentment, jealousy, anger and bitter lives.
What counts as leading life to the full is highly subjective. I do not see a society enduring more pain and bitterness then it did a few decades ago - at least not for the reason you cite. There has been a distinct negative down turn since 2008 for economic reasons not caused by feminism. And I suspect the more recent phenomena of mansplaining and white male victimhood and the need to kick back at was is seen as the liberal agenda issues out of economic decline. And bringing this back to The Handmaid's Tale - Gilead comes to power on the back of economic, climate and demographic decline. A society under extreme pressure producing Gilead's ultra conservative reaction.

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Post #29

Post by bluethread »

Divine Insight wrote:
bluethread wrote: My point is that you equate Christianity and Islam, because you recognize the similarities to be significant and the differences to be insignificant. I do not see things that way.
Actually I equate Christianity and Islam because they are clearly both offshoots from the very same underlying God mythology. In this sense they are the same religion.

What differences they may claim to have after fracturing away from the underlying foundation is basically a moot point.
As I said, you choose to recognize the former as significant and the latter as insignificant. I believe the ways in which they differ from HaTorah are very significant, because they change the underlying theology.
So no matter how Christians try to escape it, their very own superstar Jesus demands that the OT laws be retained. Many Christians deny this, but when they do that all they are doing is denying what the Gospels have Jesus saying. So it's not a supportable position.
That is what I said.
bluethread wrote: My point is that the story line of The Handmaid's Tale, as presented in the OP, does not line up well with the teachings of either the Tanakh or the Apostolic Writings. However, as I also said, when confronted with an oppressive authoritarian tale, people tend to Identify with the victims and see the oppressors as symbolic of those with which they disagree.
And my point was that modern day "Christians" don't seem to give much of a hoot about what might be in the Tanakh or the Apostolic writings.

I mean, just look at how many Christians are supporting the clearly anti-Christ behavior of Donald Trump.
Again, the first is what I said and the second is your subjective judgement based on what you think is important.

In fact, there really isn't much point in even talking about what you might personally like for Christianity to represent. The bottom line is that there exist millions of people today who call themselves "Christians" who may not agree with your personal views of what you think Christianity should represent.

So it's basically a moot point what you might think Christianity "should" represent.

You'd need to take that up with the masses of people who call themselves "Christians".

Arguing with me about it is pointless.
I am not arguing with you about what Christianity should represent. In fact, it looks like I agree with you that many Christians know little or nothing of the Tanakh. I just pointed out that a Handmaid's Tale does not represent what I see in the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings.
Also if you claim that the Tanakh represents intelligent, wise, or moral conduct, then you and I could debate that. I see totally immoral and unwise teachings, directives and commandments in the Tanakh.

So your claim that it's a respectable, moral, or intelligent guide to life doesn't automatically make it so. Obviously that's just your opinion. An opinion that I would passionately disagree with. :D
I have made no such claim on this thread. I have merely pointed out that a Handmaid's Tale does not represent the teaching one finds in the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings, though there are other philosophies that do seem to line up with what is depicted. All of that said, it is common human behavior to see one's opponents as the villains and oneself as the victim or hero, when looking at a piece of fiction, whether that is the authors intent or not.

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Post #30

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Bust Nak]

If you want my personal views of course i think the men and women not following their roles will regret it if they are honest with themselves.

Being in marketing won't be of comfort in old age.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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