Questions for those who believe in free will

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Rational Atheist
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Questions for those who believe in free will

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Post by Rational Atheist »

I'm trying to understand the belief in free will. For those who believe in free will, do you believe that your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes or not? If you do, you're a determinist and do not believe in free choice, since you can't control the causes that took place before you were born. If you don't believe your actions are determined by a chain of prior causes, or don't believe that that causal chain extends to before your birth, then you believe that at some point before your action, an event occurred for no reason whatsoever (purely random). How could this possibly get you free will either? No combination of determinism nor indeterminism (randomness) gives you "free will" in the sense of authorship of and responsibility for your actions. How can you believe anyone is ultimately responsible for what they do?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #61

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmIn my view the whole experience is The Creator losing Itself within The Creation as a matter of personal choice. But the point of the exercise was not to lose anything of The Creator in the process. The failsafe being, that The Creator knew before making and then taking that ride, that everything would work out perfect and good - the process of discovering Oneself from a point of view within a Creation set up to make that happen, would be a real hoot.
How did the Creator know the ride would work out perfect and good?
William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmFree Will cannot override What Is I Am. It cannot make The Creator into someone The Creator is not. It does not have such power.
I agree, but obviously that means different things in our worldviews.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #62

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:35 pm
William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmIn my view the whole experience is The Creator losing Itself within The Creation as a matter of personal choice. But the point of the exercise was not to lose anything of The Creator in the process. The failsafe being, that The Creator knew before making and then taking that ride, that everything would work out perfect and good - the process of discovering Oneself from a point of view within a Creation set up to make that happen, would be a real hoot.
How did the Creator know the ride would work out perfect and good?
The Creator worked it all out beforehand. The Creator 'did the math'.
William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmFree Will cannot override What Is I Am. It cannot make The Creator into someone The Creator is not. It does not have such power.
I agree, but obviously that means different things in our worldviews.

Elementary dear Watson.

It doesn't matter how many different images are worshipped as "The Creator" - they have to all be false. The Creator is not interested in being worshipped any more than It is interested in worshipping itself.



Those activities simply express themselves through a position of fear and ignorance [willful and innocent]

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #63

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:39 pm
How did the Creator know the ride would work out perfect and good?
The Creator worked it all out beforehand. The Creator 'did the math'.
As in the Creator knew all the numbers, whether it was plus, minus, multiplication, division, etc.? Saw everything that would happen? Something less than that?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #64

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #64]

As in "do the math" is not only about numbers...The verbal phrase “do the math” means to examine the facts and figures to reach a conclusion,

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #65

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:15 pmAs in "do the math" is not only about numbers...The verbal phrase “do the math” means to examine the facts and figures to reach a conclusion,
But examine what will actually occur? In other words, do you believe in the Creator's complete foreknowledge?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #66

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:54 pm
William wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:15 pmAs in "do the math" is not only about numbers...The verbal phrase “do the math” means to examine the facts and figures to reach a conclusion,
But examine what will actually occur? In other words, do you believe in the Creator's complete foreknowledge?
I only accept what I know re my own experience. In that The Creator appears to have complete foreknowledge.
I also have no problem with the idea The Creator has complete foreknowledge as to how It's Creation will unfold, but have already informed you as to why.

My understanding as to why such an idea would be hard for certain types to understand is that they see evil in The Creation and so in denying The Creator the power of complete foreknowledge and separating Creator from Creation they effectively can accept the lessor image as their preference.

Eventually these ones will accept the greater image once they are satisfied that everything they believe as being evil has transformed.

Meantime they will be kept in the boxes [creations] they created for themselves ...

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #67

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:52 pmI only accept what I know re my own experience. In that The Creator appears to have complete foreknowledge.
I also have no problem with the idea The Creator has complete foreknowledge as to how It's Creation will unfold, but have already informed you as to why.

My understanding as to why such an idea would be hard for certain types to understand is that they see evil in The Creation and so in denying The Creator the power of complete foreknowledge and separating Creator from Creation they effectively can accept the lessor image as their preference.

Eventually these ones will accept the greater image once they are satisfied that everything they believe as being evil has transformed.

Meantime they will be kept in the boxes [creations] they created for themselves ...
What is hard for me to understand is that you believe the Creator has complete foreknowledge, but that you also believe this:
William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmIn my view the whole experience is The Creator losing Itself within The Creation as a matter of personal choice. But the point of the exercise was not to lose anything of The Creator in the process. The failsafe being, that The Creator knew before making and then taking that ride, that everything would work out perfect and good - the process of discovering Oneself from a point of view within a Creation set up to make that happen, would be a real hoot.
It seems that the Creator's complete foreknowledge makes actually going through with the discovery exercise superfluous.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #68

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:31 pm
William wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:52 pmI only accept what I know re my own experience. In that The Creator appears to have complete foreknowledge.
I also have no problem with the idea The Creator has complete foreknowledge as to how It's Creation will unfold, but have already informed you as to why.

My understanding as to why such an idea would be hard for certain types to understand is that they see evil in The Creation and so in denying The Creator the power of complete foreknowledge and separating Creator from Creation they effectively can accept the lessor image as their preference.

Eventually these ones will accept the greater image once they are satisfied that everything they believe as being evil has transformed.

Meantime they will be kept in the boxes [creations] they created for themselves ...
What is hard for me to understand is that you believe the Creator has complete foreknowledge, but that you also believe this:
William wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:47 pmIn my view the whole experience is The Creator losing Itself within The Creation as a matter of personal choice. But the point of the exercise was not to lose anything of The Creator in the process. The failsafe being, that The Creator knew before making and then taking that ride, that everything would work out perfect and good - the process of discovering Oneself from a point of view within a Creation set up to make that happen, would be a real hoot.
It seems that the Creator's complete foreknowledge makes actually going through with the discovery exercise superfluous.
Of course one would have to take that up with The Creator -inevitably.

From my understanding, it is superfluous to attach human imagery onto This Process. A thing to remember is that we become product of This Process.
In That, every living being gets to become and to continue being. For us this means experiencing the next levels.

Once the whole show is unveiled in all understanding, [that being the object of the game The Creator designed] once "found" The Creator designs another game this time with fully informed co-Creators.

What's not to like...?

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #69

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:34 pmOf course one would have to take that up with The Creator -inevitably.

From my understanding, it is superfluous to attach human imagery onto This Process. A thing to remember is that we become product of This Process.
In That, every living being gets to become and to continue being. For us this means experiencing the next levels.

Once the whole show is unveiled in all understanding, [that being the object of the game The Creator designed] once "found" The Creator designs another game this time with fully informed co-Creators.

What's not to like...?
I definitely think we can't have full understanding of Truth but, given that, I don't find much merit in the "it's a mystery" defense. I think the Creator has to be logical. Creating for the purpose of discovering Oneself, when One has already discovered Oneself without the Creation happening, seems illogical to me. I don't think the Creator could do such a thing. I could be wrong, I thank you for sharing your view for me to consider, and for listening to where I am currently at on your view here. I'm always open to hearing more about this, should you come across ways that might help me.

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Re: Questions for those who believe in free will

Post #70

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #70]

Assuming that The Creator already knew Itself, were you and I existing at that point?

If not, then my point remains.

If you think we did exist as part of The Creator already knowing itself, then yes, i can agree that it would have to at least be acknowledged to be a pointless exercise. We would have to examine other possible explanations...

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