Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

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Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

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Post by Compassionist »

Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?

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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

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Post by Miles »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
As a hard determinist I wouldn't even say we have choices, but are inevitably controlled by deterministic factors that direct our lives.


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Sherlock Holmes

Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #3

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
I don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.

The question of justice (and punishment) is a profound one, it really only makes sense if we assume free will, some ability to choose above and beyond mere cause->effect>cause->effect.

It comes up in this academic round table discussion which I recommend.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Mon May 16, 2022 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

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Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pm
Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
I don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.
Are you talking about quantum mechanics? Quantum fluctuations average out at the macroscopic level.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #5

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:05 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pm
Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
I don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.
Are you talking about quantum mechanics? Quantum fluctuations average out at the macroscopic level.
Yes I suppose I am, consider the unpredictability inherent in radioactive decay. We can envisage two "identical" beings, with an identical internal state and then we must recognize that microscopic physical events can take place in each being but at different times, in different order. There's no way we can hope to avoid these two beings becoming increasingly different over time.

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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #6

Post by Compassionist »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #5]

Radioactive decay is unpredictable to humans but that does not mean that it grants humans free will.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #7

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

[Replying to Compassionist in post #6]

No, I totally agree, I wasn't suggesting that though.

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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

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Post by Miles »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:36 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #5]

Radioactive decay is unpredictable to humans but that does not mean that it grants humans free will.
OR that it's uncaused.


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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #9

Post by Compassionist »

Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.

Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.

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Re: Are choices made by biological beings inevitable?

Post #10

Post by Miles »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:00 pm
Compassionist wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:49 pm Are choices made by biological beings inevitable? If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would I not be you, when and where you are reading these words? If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, would you not be I, when and where I am typing these words? If you and I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a tardigrade in the vacuum of space we could survive there without air, water, food and shelter. Since our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, do we live inevitable lives and die inevitable deaths? In that case, how can there be justice?
I don't think so, there is reason to believe the universe is not entirely deterministic and because of that I doubt that we can be reduced to finite state machines without something being lost.
What would this reason be?

The question of justice (and punishment) is a profound one, it really only makes sense if we assume free will, some ability to choose above and beyond mere cause->effect>cause->effect.
Not at all. In a deterministic world----the one in which we live ;) ----punishment can serve as a cause itself, which, in part, produces an effect down the line that stops behavior like that which caused the punishment.

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