Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Post by Rational Atheist »

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #181

Post by Difflugia »

Seek wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:28 pmI don't think our choices are free. In that regard, I'd define free will as "The ability to reflect over one's behavior and adjust it accordingly".
That's a perfect definition of free will as it exists practically. "I can modify my own behavior" has been used in this thread as a self-evident measure of free will. In the philosophical sense, though, that still doesn't offer a way to distinguish between free will and a complicated feedback loop. Even loops that can be simply described can exhibit complicated behavior in a way that can be difficult to predict. With just a few state variables, previous inputs can affect the output in ways that are surprisingly complex. Our brains have the equivalent of way more than three or four state variables.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #182

Post by William »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:48 pm
Seek wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:28 pmI don't think our choices are free. In that regard, I'd define free will as "The ability to reflect over one's behavior and adjust it accordingly".
That's a perfect definition of free will as it exists practically. "I can modify my own behavior" has been used in this thread as a self-evident measure of free will. In the philosophical sense, though, that still doesn't offer a way to distinguish between free will and a complicated feedback loop.
And if it be a complicated feedback loop, how does this process equate to being deterministic?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #183

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:27 pmAnd if it be a complicated feedback loop, how does this process equate to being deterministic?
If the loop is rerun from the beginning with exactly the same series of inputs, it will produce exactly the same series of outputs.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #184

Post by William »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:29 pm
William wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:27 pmAnd if it be a complicated feedback loop, how does this process equate to being deterministic?
If the loop is rerun from the beginning with exactly the same series of inputs, it will produce exactly the same series of outputs.
The series of inputs may do exactly the same thing always. but it is dependent upon the data of experience, and that is not exactly the same, ever.

Subjective reaction [loop reruns] to an objective reality being experienced, does not in itself equate to the objective reality being deterministic.

Rather, it is the subjective loop reruns which are deterministic...

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #185

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:59 pmThe series of inputs may do exactly the same thing always. but it is dependent upon the data of experience, and that is not exactly the same, ever.
The "data of experience" are among the inputs.
William wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:59 pmSubjective reaction [loop reruns] to an objective reality being experienced, does not in itself equate to the objective reality being deterministic.

Rather, it is the subjective loop reruns which are deterministic...
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. My point was that it's sometimes difficult to distinguish a deterministic system that is difficult to predict in practice from a nondeterministic one that is unpredictable in principle.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #186

Post by William »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #185]
The series of inputs may do exactly the same thing always. but it is dependent upon the data of experience, and that is not exactly the same, ever.
The "data of experience" are among the inputs.
Okay.
According to science the actual experience is affected by the input medium. Human senses [via nervous system medium] only pick up a fraction of the real data, so the data of experience amounts to that fraction of real data.

The data of experience still cannot be predicted, even if it appears the same or similar to previous DoE.
The series of inputs may do exactly the same thing always. but it is dependent upon the real data. Is that always exactly the same?
Also to note, one can change the way one reacts to similar situations one has experienced, so loop reruns are not fundamental or predictable.
My point was that it's sometimes difficult to distinguish a deterministic system that is difficult to predict in practice from a nondeterministic one that is unpredictable in principle.
Is there any example you can give which allows us to understand the difference?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #187

Post by Seek »

There's a simple question to answer one's stance on freely-chosen actions: If someone rewinded time, could you do something else? If yes, then you have libertarian free will, otherwise not.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #188

Post by William »

Seek wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:05 am There's a simple question to answer one's stance on freely-chosen actions: If someone rewinded time, could you do something else? If yes, then you have libertarian free will, otherwise not.
This appears to be saying that if one could travel back in time, and upon doing so, make different choices, one would have evidence of free will...

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #189

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Edit for clarity...

Free will?

Scientifically? Logically? Philosophically? Maybe, maybe not.

What we have though is at least an illusion of it. Such that we can fuss on folks for willing em up a murder, or some other deed we ain't proud for.

I feel this free will notion is too often used as a cudgel against "morally reprehensible" behaviors.

Yes, the gay guy there has the option to have sex with, or marry a woman. He just lacks the morality, and so free wills himself into sin.

Or the woman, fearing on how she's gonna raise that child cooking up in her belly. She just lacks the morality to close them legs up, and did her a free will into pregnancy.

If God made me, and in his infinite wisdom gave me, a fallen human being, free will, then how dare he, or his fanclub, sit in judgement of me for using it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #190

Post by Seek »

William wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:10 pm
Seek wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:05 am There's a simple question to answer one's stance on freely-chosen actions: If someone rewinded time, could you do something else? If yes, then you have libertarian free will, otherwise not.
This appears to be saying that if one could travel back in time, and upon doing so, make different choices, one would have evidence of free will...
Well, a better way of explaining free will is: Being able to do something else when rewinding reality.

The metaphysical/libertarian form of free will is absurd: How can an exactly identical situation result in different decisions?

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