Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

[Rational Atheist]

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #217]

Evil is necessary because it is good that freewill beings exist.

Without freewill beings, would evil exist?

Only YHVH is perfect so creating freewill beings then by nature they must be less than perfect, which means they will cause suffering, which is evil.

Are you saying that YHVH - being perfect - is not a free-will being?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #217]

Evil is necessary because it is good that freewill beings exist.

Without freewill beings, would evil exist?

Only YHVH is perfect so creating freewill beings then by nature they must be less than perfect, which means they will cause suffering, which is evil.

Are you saying that YHVH - being perfect - is not a free-will being?

If God caused the world to exist in such a way that imperfect freewill beings did not exist, then evil would not exist.

God is a perfect being with a perfect will. God could have willed there be no world at all, but that would be contrary to the good, for existence is better than nonexistence, for nonexistence is nothing at all, so it could not be something like good. I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #222]

I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

Explain.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #222]

I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

Explain.

We act for a means to an end, to some desire. God acts for the end itself.

For more information on the differences in our will and God's will, Aquinas has a lot to say - https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#article2

I do not want to flood the forum with a lot of what he says there.

[Miles]

God is a perfect . . . .

Fine, just show your proof or evidence, because I say he is not perfect and here is my evidence, a straightforward syllogism. But first, a definition.

mistake
noun: mistake; plural noun: mistakes
an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

My syllogism

Feeling repentant, regretful, or sorry for what one does indicates a mistake (see definition above) was made
[One does not repent, regret, or feel sorry for having done the right thing---not making a mistake.]

God felt repentant, regretful, and sorry for what he did
_______________________________________________________

∴ God made a mistake

So what is my evidence that god felt repentant, regretful, and sorry ? How about:

1 Samuel 15:35 (KJ21)
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Jeremiah 42:10 (NCB) (god speaking)
“ ‘If you resolve to remain in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you. For I deeply regret the disaster that I have inflicted upon you.

Genesis 6:6 (ICB)
The Lord was sorry he had made human beings on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.

Now, do perfect beings make mistakes? Of course not, ergo, god, having made mistakes, does not qualify as being perfect. God is, in fact, imperfect.

God could have willed there be no world at all, but that would be contrary to the good, for existence is better than nonexistence, for nonexistence is nothing at all, so it could not be something like good. I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

Nice I guess, but wholly irrelevant.

.

[AquinasForGod]

God is a perfect . . . .

Fine, just show your proof or evidence, because I say he is not perfect and here is my evidence, a straightforward syllogism. But first, a definition.

mistake
noun: mistake; plural noun: mistakes
an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

My syllogism

Feeling repentant, regretful, or sorry for what one does indicates a mistake (see definition above) was made
[One does not repent, regret, or feel sorry for having done the right thing---not making a mistake.]

God felt repentant, regretful, and sorry for what he did
_______________________________________________________

∴ God made a mistake

So what is my evidence that god felt repentant, regretful, and sorry ? How about:

1 Samuel 15:35 (KJ21)
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Jeremiah 42:10 (NCB) (god speaking)
“ ‘If you resolve to remain in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you. For I deeply regret the disaster that I have inflicted upon you.

Genesis 6:6 (ICB)
The Lord was sorry he had made human beings on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.

Now, do perfect beings make mistakes? Of course not, ergo, god, having made mistakes, does not qualify as being perfect. God is, in fact, imperfect.

God could have willed there be no world at all, but that would be contrary to the good, for existence is better than nonexistence, for nonexistence is nothing at all, so it could not be something like good. I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

Nice I guess, but wholly irrelevant.

.

That is not how Classical Theists like Catholics read the bible. It is not how Rambam, (famous Jewish Rabbi) understood the Torah. These stories anthropomorphize God.

I have stated before why God is perfect.

Perfect: having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

That which is eternal, if it has room to be better than it is, it would already do so, thus an eternal being must be perfect. It is why we hold that God is immutable.

I base it on philosophical grounding, but there is this verse

"Be you perfect as also your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #224]

I don't know if I would say YHVH has freewill, but YHVH has a will.

Explain.

We act for a means to an end, to some desire. YHVH acts for the end itself.

What 'end'?

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #226]

"Be you perfect as also YHVH is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

On the one hand it is claimed that humans are made in the image of YHVH, yet they are neither perfect and they have free will.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #227]

You asked to what end. The teleological end.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #227]

You asked to what end. The teleological end.

Design and purpose of the material universe. To make it into a machine, rather than the raw materials it currently is.

This would sufficiently answer my observation re your religious beliefs:

On the one hand it is claimed that humans are made in the image of YHVH, yet they are neither perfect and they have free will.

If they were perfect and had no free will, they would be useless to that end.

[Miles]

God is a perfect . . . .

Fine, just show your proof or evidence, because I say he is not perfect and here is my evidence, a straightforward syllogism. But first, a definition.

mistake
noun: mistake; plural noun: mistakes
an action or judgment that is misguided or wrong.

My syllogism

Feeling repentant, regretful, or sorry for what one does indicates a mistake (see definition above) was made
[One does not repent, regret, or feel sorry for having done the right thing---not making a mistake.]

God felt repentant, regretful, and sorry for what he did
_______________________________________________________

∴ God made a mistake

So what is my evidence that god felt repentant, regretful, and sorry ? How about:

1 Samuel 15:35 (KJ21)
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul; and the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Jeremiah 42:10 (NCB) (god speaking)
“ ‘If you resolve to remain in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you. For I deeply regret the disaster that I have inflicted upon you.

Genesis 6:6 (ICB)
The Lord was sorry he had made human beings on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.

Now, do perfect beings make mistakes? Of course not, ergo, god, having made mistakes, does not qualify as being perfect. God is, in fact, imperfect.

God could have willed there be no world at all, but that would be contrary to the good, for existence is better than nonexistence, for nonexistence is nothing at all, so it could not be something like good. I don't know if I would say God has freewill, but God has a will.

Nice I guess, but wholly irrelevant.

.

That is not how Classical Theists like Catholics read the bible. It is not how Rambam, (famous Jewish Rabbi) understood the Torah.

And why don't they? Because it gets them in a whole lot of trouble having to justify their claims that god is X, Y, and Z when the Bible unquestionably shows he is not.

These stories anthropomorphize God.

Perhaps, but no more so than the hundreds of other incidents where god has inserted himself into our reality.

I have stated before why God is perfect.

Sorry, but I don't recall you addressing any "why" at all, just making claim after claim that he is perfect and then defining what perfect is. Exactly like you've done below.

Perfect: having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

That which is eternal, if it has room to be better than it is, it would already do so, thus an eternal being must be perfect. It is why we hold that God is immutable.

I base it on philosophical grounding, but there is this verse

"Be you perfect as also your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

Which is just another Bible contradiction to deal with. Cherry pick all you like, but the fact remains there are Bible verses that illustrate why god is not perfect,



He did things that were so wrong (big mistakes) he felt repentant, regretful, and sorry for doing them.

Jeremiah 42:10
GNV
If ye will dwell in this land, then I will build you, and not destroy you, and I will plant you, and not root you out: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

ISV
‘If you will just remain in this land, I’ll build you up and not pull you down. I’ll plant you and not uproot you, for I’m sorry about the disaster I’ve brought on you.

NCB
“ ‘If you resolve to remain in this land, I will build you up and not tear you down; I will plant you and not uproot you. For I deeply regret the disaster that I have inflicted upon you.

Sound like God made a good and perfect decision to overthrow the Israelites? So good and perfect that he repented, regretted, and was sorry for doing it? Of course not. He blew it. God made a mistake. He is not perfect no matter how many times you claim he is. The evidence speaks for itself.

.