What are the strongest arguments for atheism?

harvey1 · Post by **harvey1** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:15 pm

You know, come to think of it. I haven't seen any arguments that support the atheist claim that God doesn't exist. Why is that? So, let's turn the tables for a second, and ask, what are the strongest arguments in support of atheism?

Btw, don't bother answering if you either don't have an argument or don't feel that you are required to support your philosophical position.

Beto · Post by **Beto** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:41 pm

stmw wrote:Did most atheists once had a belief in God when they were younger?

Growing up hearing "thank god" and "god willing" and "ask santa" and "leave it for the tooth fairy" tends to make one take such things as part of the real world. I was no exception.

stmw · Post by **stmw** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:05 pm

goat wrote:As for your question, many of the atheists on this board had a belief in God when they were young.

I heard Dr. Dobson (a christian psychologist) on the radio say that 100% of believers will experience a crisis of faith, and only 10% recover from it. Not that they become atheist, but maybe they don't have anything to do with God. I have also heard that legalism in the church is the biggest hindrance to non-believers. I wonder what caused most people's crisis of faith. Is it disappointment with other believers who had a strict non-loving attitude?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:23 pm

stmw wrote:
goat wrote:As for your question, many of the atheists on this board had a belief in God when they were young.
I heard Dr. Dobson (a christian psychologist) on the radio say that 100% of believers will experience a crisis of faith, and only 10% recover from it. Not that they become atheist, but maybe they don't have anything to do with God. I have also heard that legalism in the church is the biggest hindrance to non-believers. I wonder what caused most people's crisis of faith. Is it disappointment with other believers who had a strict non-loving attitude?

From listening to the various stories, it goes from anything from a bad experience in the church to reading the bible and thinking 'this doesn't make sense'.

I have talked to a couple of ex-YEC's that left the church because when they went to classes to learn enough to PROVE YEC, they were so shocked to find the real evidence eliminate YEC from consideration they lost total faith in God.

zepper899 · Post by **zepper899** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:54 am

my story, which is probably the same as most:
grew up going to church, but never understood the rabid devotion of others.
sermons taught me that being a good person was good.
utter devotion to Godwas not my priority, as i couldn't comprehend his superiority.
read teh bible, found to many contradictions and injustices to accept him.
increasing scientific and anthropological knowledge totally ruined the concept for me.
am now studying with a double major in humanities (religion and philosophy) and biology.

knowledge is teh supreme goal, whether it be knowledge of god or knowledge to disprove god.

QED · Post by **QED** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:30 am

stmw wrote:I think that the best evidence FOR the belief in God is the fact that we are here and God created us.

It probably is -- although, as an argument, it is a tad circular.

Now think about what this implies to see where atheism fits in: anything that created us (produced, generated, lead to, resulted in etc.) will be labelled as God. Even if this was a natural process, as the benefactors, we will tend to worship it as our Father. However, do we really know enough about the process to regard this as more than just a metaphor?

It seems to be an inevitable consequence of our habitual mode of thought to ascribe causes to all things and logically it might seem that there must be an ultimate cause of everything. However, we will appreciate that this ultimate cause must be a special case requiring no cause of its own -- hence we will not be sure when to invoke this priveledge which might be deserved by the universe itself for example. Nonetheless, causes can be sorted into two categories: intentional and unintentional.

Now where can we go with this thought? We are all very familiar with one particular model when it comes to seeing complicated looking artefacts; intentional human design. We do make exceptions for rivers, mountains, storm-systems, rings and moons orbiting planets, convection cells, crystal growth and so on, but we tend to overlook the reasons for our choice of such exceptions. We're not employing any identifiable methodology other than some kind of test of incredulity. This is a known fallacy though -- I can't believe X can happen that way therefore X hasn't happened that way.

Then along comes Science following after the same human instinct that all things have causes and sets about demystifying these causes by explaining how rivers, mountains etc. organize themselves. Now some of our initial incredulity is shown to be unfounded. Complexity can arise from simple rule-based systems under certain conditions (we should have guessed as much when we had already identify so many exceptions to our instinctive rule) and more big chunks of nature start falling into the same category as unintentional consequences of simple rules.

Of course there's a tantalising possibility that the rules themselves may have been laid down intentionally but that possibility is insufficient as proof. The ambiguity in the interpretation is stubbornly persistent as nothing we can observe tells us whether intent has played a part in out existence or not (including all and any appearances of fine-tuning).

Ultimately then, the best shot that I can give it is that I can see no principle whereby the cause of our universe could be intentional, as intent itself is something that can only be understood as emerging from biological complexity -- something emerging in it's more subtle forms only late on in that process. If someone can demonstrate some kind of "naked intent" or propose another route (hopefully something that isn't just magic) to this apparently exclusive biological property then it will be easier to entertain a theistic interpretation.

Fallibleone · Post by **Fallibleone** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:45 am

I am in the minority here because I have never really had belief in God. I was raised without it (I was not christened, nor was my older sister) and have lived without it for most of my life. I did think hard about God, read about God and even tried without success to believe in God and pray to God. I'm just incapable. It isn't in me.

stmw · Post by **stmw** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:14 pm

goat wrote: I have talked to a couple of ex-YEC's that left the church because when they went to classes to learn enough to PROVE YEC, they were so shocked to find the real evidence eliminate YEC from consideration they lost total faith in God.

What is YEC?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:23 pm

stmw wrote:
goat wrote: I have talked to a couple of ex-YEC's that left the church because when they went to classes to learn enough to PROVE YEC, they were so shocked to find the real evidence eliminate YEC from consideration they lost total faith in God.
What is YEC?

Young Earth Creationism.

stmw · Post by **stmw** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:43 pm

bernee51 wrote:
stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
From what do you NEED to be redeemed?

Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder. Another word for redeemer is advocate: someone on our side, who understands our weaknesses, not someone trying to kick us when we are down.

stmw · Post by **stmw** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:57 pm

Fallibleone wrote:I am in the minority here because I have never really had belief in God. I was raised without it (I was not christened, nor was my older sister) and have lived without it for most of my life. I did think hard about God, read about God and even tried without success to believe in God and pray to God. I'm just incapable. It isn't in me.

Have you ever read any of Beth Moore's books or heard of her bible study's? I've done "Breaking Free" and "Living Free". I want to read "Get out of that pit". All her literature is good. I believe you are capable, don't loose hope.

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, bring your request to God, and the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Phillippians 4:6,7