You know, come to think of it. I haven't seen any arguments that support the atheist claim that God doesn't exist. Why is that? So, let's turn the tables for a second, and ask, what are the strongest arguments in support of atheism?
Btw, don't bother answering if you either don't have an argument or don't feel that you are required to support your philosophical position.
What are the strongest arguments for atheism?
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Post #691
Is there a noun for what you need to be redeemed from? Your description is rather abstract.stmw wrote:Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder.bernee51 wrote:From what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
Spanish Inquisitioners, for example, might have been considered redeemers, but they could hardly be considered advocates.Another word for redeemer is advocate
Post #692
So from what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote:Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder. Another word for redeemer is advocate: someone on our side, who understands our weaknesses, not someone trying to kick us when we are down.bernee51 wrote:From what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
BTW I do not sin, although I may fall short of my own expectations and those of others.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Post #693
I'm with bernee51 here. Sin is a religious concept that is meant to tie people to the church. Some of what I do may be called sin by those religious people who wish to judge me and coerce me to becoming a church member. From where I stand, though, it's much more effective and satisfying for me to recognize that what I've done is wrong and make amends in my community, where transgression is really accounted.bernee51 wrote:So from what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote:Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder. Another word for redeemer is advocate: someone on our side, who understands our weaknesses, not someone trying to kick us when we are down.bernee51 wrote:From what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
BTW I do not sin, although I may fall short of my own expectations and those of others.
If all the ignorance in the world passed a second ago, what would you say? Who would you obey?
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Post #694
My view of 'sin' is quite a bit different.. probably because of my Jewish upbringing.realthinker wrote: I'm with bernee51 here. Sin is a religious concept that is meant to tie people to the church. Some of what I do may be called sin by those religious people who wish to judge me and coerce me to becoming a church member. From where I stand, though, it's much more effective and satisfying for me to recognize that what I've done is wrong and make amends in my community, where transgression is really accounted.
The Christian version of sin seems to be 'going against God's law', and they need
'the blood of Jesus for the remission of their sins'.
However, that is not my view. Sin, from the hebrew, is literally 'missing the mark'.
To me, that is not doing as well as you could. This means unintentionally hurting someone else, and is not this really HEAVY stain that Christians consider. If you
ever did not act as well to someone else as you could, that is 'missing the mark'.
This does not have the connotations that the "Christian sin" does.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #695
Sin is breaking the law, and the law can be summed in 2 laws: Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.Beto wrote:Is there a noun for what you need to be redeemed from? Your description is rather abstract.stmw wrote:Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder.bernee51 wrote:From what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
Spanish Inquisitioners, for example, might have been considered redeemers, but they could hardly be considered advocates.Another word for redeemer is advocate
It is hypocritcal to kill someone for not accepting a message of grace.
Post #696
I'm fine with the latter. I will not, however, love what I perceive to be imaginary beings. I speak two languages... any god can talk to me in either one, and convince me itself. It's as simple as that.stmw wrote:Sin is breaking the law, and the law can be summed in 2 laws: Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.
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Post #697
These two laws are unemployable because they are without definition and because they provide no guidance. I am an atheist and I do those two things all day every day. I simply don't have the heart (whatever that means, really), mind, or strength to believe in god, I guess. But he's got all I have to give, should he be out there. I'm sure I do live up to your expectations with regard to my neighbors, though. From my perspective, that's the only ones I can "sin" against because they're who I have to live with.stmw wrote:Sin is breaking the law, and the law can be summed in 2 laws: Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.Beto wrote:Is there a noun for what you need to be redeemed from? Your description is rather abstract.stmw wrote:Let me explain from the example of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of good and evil: God came in the garden to look for them, but they hid and said they were naked. (Did God say they were naked? No, God actually said "Who told you that you were naked?" God didn't create sin or shame, and he is not trying to condemn us.) Then Adam and Eve try to cover themselves with leaves. We all have the tendency to sin and sense that we fall short. People think "If I could be more perfect, then I would fit in/feel loved/be accepted. An example of this is sometimes young girls look in the mirror and think they are fat, when they fine, but they develop an eating disorder.bernee51 wrote:From what do you NEED to be redeemed?stmw wrote: I believe in God because I know that I need a redeemer, ...
Spanish Inquisitioners, for example, might have been considered redeemers, but they could hardly be considered advocates.Another word for redeemer is advocate
It is hypocritcal to kill someone for not accepting a message of grace.
If all the ignorance in the world passed a second ago, what would you say? Who would you obey?
Post #698
I think realthinker hits the nail on the head by bringing definitions into question...stmw wrote:Sin is breaking the law, and the law can be summed in 2 laws:
To love God, apart from the leap of faith involved in believing in his existence, means respecting several books-worth of legislation set out by various human committees and accepting that these are exactly as God ordained them to be.stmw wrote:Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength.
Lest we forget that all this law-giving is supposed to be a practical exercise with a social perspective, we must be reminded that in addition to obeying rules designed to perpetuate and validate a system of belief, we must also remember to conduct ourselves according to that belief.stmw wrote:Love your neighbor as yourself.
Nice to see the two key aspects of religion set out so clearly; maintainence of the vehicle conveying the message and the application of the message.
Another argument for atheism (the topic) could be that we understand the "trick" that religion is using to perpetuate human social legislation, and hold more open and frequent committees to improve the quality of our governing material.
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Post #699
Been doing that in different ways on different days all my life. I kind of like the pragmatic fuzzy logic it engenders as compared to the stained or not stained Christian bivalence.goat wrote:However, that is not my view. Sin, from the hebrew, is literally 'missing the mark'.
To me, that is not doing as well as you could. This means unintentionally hurting someone else, and is not this really HEAVY stain that Christians consider. If you
ever did not act as well to someone else as you could, that is 'missing the mark'.
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Re: What are the strongest arguments for atheism?
Post #700harvey1 wrote:You know, come to think of it. I haven't seen any arguments that support the atheist claim that God doesn't exist. Why is that? So, let's turn the tables for a second, and ask, what are the strongest arguments in support of atheism?
Btw, don't bother answering if you either don't have an argument or don't feel that you are required to support your philosophical position.
This is an argument for atheism against a claim that Logic, Morals or the Physical Laws are Necessary.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-necessary-being/
Allow me to raise an interesting dilemma for the Theist who believes that God is Necessary and the Universe, is therefore, Contingent.
If everything in the Universe and/or the universe itself is Contingent upon God, then there is no logical way that there can be Universal truths - only contingent truths based on Gods whim.
From Tremblay:
Posit X is a feature of human understanding.
1. X is necessary or has a necessary part.
2. If theism is true, then divine creation obtains.
3. If divine creation is true, then all in the universe is contingent to God’s act of creation, and nothing in the universe is necessary.
4. If theism is true, then no X can be necessary or have a necessary part. (from 2 and 3)
5. Theism is false. (from 1 and 4)
That is, X, could be scientific principles, physical laws, morality, logic, etc. Anything humans understand.
This means that they are not Necessary, but Contingent and therefore it is impossible for them to be Absolute, or even principles since they all are contingent on Gods whim.
So, I claim that logic is a Necessary part of the Universe, it is an aspect that, if logical laws didn't reign, then the universe wouldn't exist (certainly as we know it).
The theist will have to explain that if logic is contingent, then how can he use logic?
Since atheism is a response to theism (we all start as atheists, since we aren't born with a god-belief). Theism is the position that initially posits a god. This argument counters many versions of Theism. (Obviously, it is hard for any ONE argument to counter ALL Theistic versions)