Does Divine foreknowledge negate free will?

[EduChris]

In Islam, Allah is said to have taken his pen and begun to write. Each person's life has been scripted out in precise, exact detail before the world was created. Some Christians even have similar views of the God of the Bible (although I and many other Christians do not share that view).

Anyway, the question is, If God has scripted every detail of our lives before we were even born, can we still have free will?

I do not wish to debate whether we actually have free will, or whether free will is possible in our physical universe. The question at hand is simply whether free will--freedom of choice, freedom to do otherwise--makes any sense at all if our lives have been scripted by the Deity before we were born.

[Tomas]

[Replying to post 49 by ttruscott]

Thank you ttruscott for your reply. From other posts of yours I have read I get the feeling this subject means a lot to you, as it does to me, and that you have put much thought into it.

2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

Exactly.

Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

"they must know" and "but without proof" contradict each other. If you don't have "proof" then you have a "guess". I feel that would be better described as Hope, not Faith. Yet from what you go on to say I can tell you are holding onto your "faith" in a just God. To be admired and I hope you are right.

Never the less, Jesus, the "Word of God" says that many are called but few are chosen, not "few choose". If God was worried about free will and informed decisions would he bother to hide "these things from the wise and understanding" and reveal them to babes?

What do the words say? What do the words say? I'm a fool and a sinner, at best an average IQ. I try to follow some of these posts and my head starts to spin. Can it be that hard? It's not like much hangs in the balance here.
And so I too try keep a "faith" in a just God. I just don't get much encouragement from the Bible.

[ttruscott]

Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

"they must know" and "but without proof" contradict each other. If you don't have "proof" then you have a "guess".

There is a heaven. There is a hell. Maybe. But there is something, not nothing. GOD would not say "I am your GOD, accept it or not!" and leave it at that...there is nothing for us to go on, no real or full choice. That is what I mean by guess. No, we must know what HE claims will be the result if we accept HIM and what will be the result if we do not. Now we have reason to start to contemplate what we want to do. I'm pretty sure that we were told the whole gospel story before we chose, for instance. No one can plead ignorance -'you never told us about that!' at all.

I feel that would be better described as Hope, not Faith. Yet from what you go on to say I can tell you are holding onto your "faith" in a just God. To be admired and I hope you are right.

Since we had no proof and since faith is defined as an unproven hope Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. I too believe we chose as a way of defining our hopes for the best chance at happiness either with HIM as HIS Bride or against HIM as a false god and the first liar.

Never the less, Jesus, the "Word of God" says that many are called but few are chosen, not "few choose". If God was worried about free will and informed decisions would he bother to hide "these things from the wise and understanding" and reveal them to babes?

You seem to me mixing up what I contend for our pre-earth lives with life on earth. Only those who chose to re-create their natures as sinful are sent to earth. Among these sinners are both elect / chosen and reprobate people. Few are the chosen / elect sinners in comparison to the greater number of reprobate that rejected HIM. Since only sinners are born on earth (my way of saying all are sinners) and being enslaved to sin overcomes our free will, clouding our minds and desires, GOD has no need to worry about going against our free will here but only conforming our lives to our self chosen fates.

I just don't get much encouragement from the Bible.

I also believe that HE hides things from people to force them to seek HIM and not to rely on their own understanding of the Book.

[Tomas]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Hello again ttruscott.

You seem to me mixing up what I contend for our pre-earth lives with life on earth. Only those who chose to re-create their natures as sinful are sent to earth.

I guess what I am mixing up is the idea that we were talking about concepts stated in the Bible. I am no Bible scholar but I am not aware of pre-earth lives or other such concepts being mentioned by Jesus or the apostles. But you seem to have quite a bit to say on it. If this is a theory you propose I have no knowledge or memory of any such existence and so can't discuss its merits one way or another. I have enough trouble trying to understand this life I'm living let alone what might have happened in a possible former one.
Take care fellow searcher.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Hello again ttruscott.

You seem to me mixing up what I contend for our pre-earth lives with life on earth. Only those who chose to re-create their natures as sinful are sent to earth.

I guess what I am mixing up is the idea that we were talking about concepts stated in the Bible. I am no Bible scholar but I am not aware of pre-earth lives or other such concepts being mentioned by Jesus or the apostles.

I bet you are aware of it but so automatically follow the orthodox line that you do not register the hint of our pre-existence. Orthodoxy has had 4000 years to solidify their pov into a stonewall which makes it hard to see any other pov.

For instance in the story of the disciples questioning Jesus about the man born blind they ask whose sin had him born blind, his parents (a possibility) or his own sin, an impossibility if we are all created at conception or birth.

Jesus ignores the supposed impossibility of their question and tells them that his blindness was not a punishment for any sin but he was picked to show the glory of GOD when he was healed by a miracle that was considered to be one of the three miracles only the Messiah could perform, healing a man born blind.

Quite often in first thinking about this problem people will wildly claim that “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,� proves that the man did not sin at any time especially before he was born, an idea which contradicts too many other doctrines to be considered, especially in relation to the parents.

Also, it is hard to imagine where they got that idea that his sin before birth could cause him to suffer since it is not a common Jewish idea at all having accepted our being created on earth at the first reading of Genesis. But after three years of talking with Jesus we are to think they suddenly made up some outlandish theory without Him rebuking them for it at all???

Neither can anyone tell me what sow means in Matt 13:36-39 which tells us that Christ and the devil both sow people into the world except by mixing this parable up with the previous one about the seed on the good and bad ground and wildly claiming that the good seed is the word when it is clearly stated they are people. And since sow means to take from storage and scatter into a field, we can ask where is this place of supposed storage to which GOD has provided some little insight in Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN... and for those who do not redefine spirit to make this impossible there is Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust RETURN to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it. but if the wicked people return to Sheol that the spirit that returns must also refer to people, to my mind.

So this is a few verses with mysterious hints to our pre-existence that you probably never noticed before. Would you be surprised to know there are literally dozens of such supports for PCE theology and once you start seeing them you wonder how they could ever have been missed?

But you seem to have quite a bit to say on it. If this is a theory you propose I have no knowledge or memory of any such existence and so can't discuss its merits one way or another.

Don't forget that Rom 1 goes on and on about how sinners have repressed the truth from their minds and memories because of our love for sin...

I have enough trouble trying to understand this life I'm living let alone what might have happened in a possible former one.
Take care fellow searcher.

I do know what you mean, stay cool...

[Tomas]

[Replying to post 53 by ttruscott]

Wow ttruscott, be careful my friend. It sounds like you are starting to write your own Bible. Like a mathematician that has based his life's work on an equation that keeps coming up with the wrong answer, but can't quit working on it.

[ChaosBorders]

[Replying to Tomas]

Oh goodness, this DOES take me back. Though you were mistaken, it was not a thread dead three months but rather six years and three months.

ttruscott's pre-existence idea is most interesting in that it actually deals quite well with the challenges against free will presented by basically the entirety of observable reality dealt with in the fields of science.

However, it does not fundamentally answer the challenge posed against free will by the concept of Divine foreknowledge provided in the thread's main topic. Moreover, ttruscott's entire line of reasoning seems to hinge on the concept that evil and sin are positively existing things rather than absences of good. I see no reason to believe that to be true.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 53 by ttruscott]

Wow ttruscott, be careful my friend. It sounds like you are starting to write your own Bible. Like a mathematician that has based his life's work on an equation that keeps coming up with the wrong answer, but can't quit working on it.

If you are defining pce as a wrong answer, what is your proof it is wrong?

[Tomas]

[Replying to post 56 by ttruscott]

ttruscott wrote: "If you are defining pce as a wrong answer, what is your proof it is wrong?"
For the same reasons we agreed on that full knowledge of the consequences and lack of manipulation would negate any free choice of eternal damnation and suffering, (supposing that any entity would have a survival instinct) whether pre or post creation.
I suppose one could imagine an all powerful and omniscient god could decide to create a world and billions of conscious beings knowing full well that the overwhelming majority of them were going to suffer for eternity. Moses said to "fear God". Jesus said to love Him with all you are. A god like that, fear definitely, love..... that would be pretty tough wouldn't it?

[jgh7]

To me, free will is the natural state of our consciousness. Free will can be negated through mind-altering drugs. Hypothetically, it could also be negated through some sort of machine that prevents us from thinking as openly and freely as we can.

ex) There's a machine implanted in the brain that makes us selfish and never able to share with anyone. Whereas normally we would be much more open to sharing. This machine has thus blocked an aspect of our free will.

Some being having knowledge of the future has nothing to do with other being's free will imo. If that being actively tampers with our consciousness however, then they are affecting our free will.

[ttruscott]

Moses said to "fear God". Jesus said to love Him with all you are. A god like that, fear definitely, love..... that would be pretty tough wouldn't it?

Good morning Tomas:

'Fear' in that context referred to holding YHWH in proper respect which is the awe, adoration and reverence that flows naturally when someone is in HIS presence but as ordinary folk here, we can only guess at and do our best to emulate, given whatever HE gives us.

Love is the pair bonding experience we can share with others and once we have a personal experience of YHWH, it will grow and become perfect. I am not convinced that adoration is love or that unperfected saints can truly love GOD. We are here to learn to be holy, that is, in perfect accord with HIS character and plans, especially for the judgement, and that once evil is eradicated, then we will have the freedom and closeness to GOD that will contribute to the full pair bond forming.