Belief a CHOICE?

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
rstrats
Scholar
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:37 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Belief a CHOICE?

Post #1

Post by rstrats »

A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.� So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Belief a CHOICE?

Post #71

Post by ttruscott »

Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 68 by ttruscott]

By "our thoughts would then come from our nature" are you not implying our freewill is constrained by our nature? What is free will, if they are not a sub set of thoughts?
Yes, I remember the struggle with these ideas before. IF we have a moral nature, we follow that nature in our thoughts, yes. If it is sinful, our thoughts are coloured by sin. If we are holy, our thoughts and desires end in righteousness.

BUT if we are ingenuously innocent we have no moral nature at all, neither good nor bad. I contend that we created a moral nature for ourselves when we made our first moral decision on the question of what to do about YHWH's claims to be our GOD.

If we chose to put our faith in HIM as telling us the truth and accepted HIM as our GOD, we became by holy, dedicated to GOD, under HIS promise of election and salvation but not yet by nature righteous, not yet perfected in our morals. Maybe choosing to accept HIM as GOD is not a moral decision eh, since some of the elect did sin later? Maybe we are thereby good but not perfected / matured in goodness so we were not yet righteous, ie by nature good. I know the angels are holy, righteous and elect by their own free will decision so they are perfected / matured in holiness. Actually, the Bible does not speak to a holy or righteous nature but it does speak about a sinful nature so maybe it is different somehow?

The elect humans called the good seed, must mature into holy righteousness before the judgement so the judgment will not affect them. Also the fact that the elect are promised both election (to be HIS heavenly Bride) and salvation from any future sin implies that our righteous nature is NOT fulfilled by our free will choice to accept YHWH as our GOD and become HIS elect or there would be no need to promise the elect salvation from sin...or if it is started by that choice, it needs perfecting by a free will choice to follow HIS will in all things which is what the sinful elect stumbled over.

Then too some, by putting their faith in HIM as a false god and the first and worst liar became morally bad, their natures evil and not under the promise of salvation so they are eternally evil.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada
Been thanked: 3 times

Post #72

Post by ttruscott »

rstrats wrote: Perhaps someone new looking in will be able to demonstrate an ability to consciously choose to believe things.
I was faced with the need to believe in the Trinity or to believe that the Trinity contention was a lie. After looking and listening to the evidence, I very consciously chose to believe in the Trinity...

Do you have proof I did something else and only thought I was making a conscious choice to believe in the Trinity?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

Plumbus Grumbo
Apprentice
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Post #73

Post by Plumbus Grumbo »

rstrats wrote: Perhaps someone new looking in who thinks they can consciously choose to believe things will be able to demonstrate their ability by doing aa requested in the OP.

Good point. And as Blastcat points out in post #54, attempts to rationalize choosing one's belief dissolve into nonsensical word salad. One cannot CHOOSE to believe that one is a tapeworm. One is compelled to believe as one does. Mentally ill people are recognized by their beliefs in that which is obviously false because all others have been compelled to believe otherwise. (The moon instructs me to eat only sawdust on thursdays).

rstrats
Scholar
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:37 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #74

Post by rstrats »

ttruscott,
re: "Do you have proof I did something else and only thought I was making a conscious choice to believe in the Trinity?"

Of course not. So how about proving that you can consciously choose to believe things by demonstrating your ability as requested in the OP?

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm

Post #75

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 73 by Plumbus Grumbo]





Plumbus Grumbo wrote:
And as Blastcat points out in post #54, attempts to rationalize choosing one's belief dissolve into nonsensical word salad. One cannot CHOOSE to believe that one is a tapeworm. One is compelled to believe as one does.
About that...

I first off, I think it's true.
I don't think I have a choice to believe something.

If I think that it's true, I just believe it.
I think that belief is s SUBSET of knowledge.

But of course, I can be WRONG about knowledge.
I can think I really know something, when I really don't.

As a skeptic, I call this an error.
As a human being, I make very many errors.

The thing is, I always have a hard time EXPLAINING how beliefs aren't "chosen" to people who tell me quite honestly that they have "CHOSEN" to believe something. And brother, there are a LOT of those people around here.

I've even been ridiculed for not being able to explain it well enough. That was a disaster, because my failure REINFORCED their idea that they are perfectly justified to "pick and choose" what they believe, like they do for wardrobe.

I've always regretted that conversation.. it was SUCH a failure for me.

I can play devil's advocate and allow someone to convince ME that we don't choose our beliefs.

I'd play... I'd even do a one on one.
Think about it.

Plumbus Grumbo wrote:
Mentally ill people are recognized by their beliefs in that which is obviously false because all others have been compelled to believe otherwise. (The moon instructs me to eat only sawdust on thursdays).
Ahhhh Kimosabe.

With RELIGIONS,... an atheist is the crazy one. I think its safe to say that religious people VASTLY outnumber atheists. So, just WHO is delusional?

( reason instructs me to deny the truth of God )


:)

User avatar
Blastcat
Banned
Banned
Posts: 5948
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:18 pm

Post #76

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 72 by ttruscott]
ttruscott wrote:
rstrats wrote: Perhaps someone new looking in will be able to demonstrate an ability to consciously choose to believe things.
I was faced with the need to believe in the Trinity or to believe that the Trinity contention was a lie. After looking and listening to the evidence, I very consciously chose to believe in the Trinity...
____________

Question:


  • You must have thought that the Trinity was a true proposition, is that correct?

____________


:)

Plumbus Grumbo
Apprentice
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Post #77

Post by Plumbus Grumbo »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 73 by Plumbus Grumbo]





Plumbus Grumbo wrote:
And as Blastcat points out in post #54, attempts to rationalize choosing one's belief dissolve into nonsensical word salad. One cannot CHOOSE to believe that one is a tapeworm. One is compelled to believe as one does.
About that...

I first off, I think it's true.
I don't think I have a choice to believe something.

If I think that it's true, I just believe it.
I think that belief is s SUBSET of knowledge.

But of course, I can be WRONG about knowledge.
I can think I really know something, when I really don't.

As a skeptic, I call this an error.
As a human being, I make very many errors.

The thing is, I always have a hard time EXPLAINING how beliefs aren't "chosen" to people who tell me quite honestly that they have "CHOSEN" to believe something. And brother, there are a LOT of those people around here.

I've even been ridiculed for not being able to explain it well enough. That was a disaster, because my failure REINFORCED their idea that they are perfectly justified to "pick and choose" what they believe, like they do for wardrobe.

I've always regretted that conversation.. it was SUCH a failure for me.

I can play devil's advocate and allow someone to convince ME that we don't choose our beliefs.

I'd play... I'd even do a one on one.
Think about it.
Failures such a you mention are a good thing. Learning occurs when cognitive dissonance is present. People can't choose to believe their a lime Rickey. Case closed.
Plumbus Grumbo wrote:
Mentally ill people are recognized by their beliefs in that which is obviously false because all others have been compelled to believe otherwise. (The moon instructs me to eat only sawdust on thursdays).
Ahhhh Kimosabe.

With RELIGIONS,... an atheist is the crazy one. I think its safe to say that religious people VASTLY outnumber atheists. So, just WHO is delusional?

( reason instructs me to deny the truth of God )


:)
[/quote]

That's a much trickier question. "Delusion" is a psychological label, not a scientific one. What is "delusione" varies depending on what the majority feel is normal. In certain societies i would be delusional to believe the earth is round instead of flat.

Plumbus Grumbo
Apprentice
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Post #78

Post by Plumbus Grumbo »

ttruscott wrote:
A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
It is very much a faith, trust, issue. Faith, the proof of things unseen, is a choice....

Creation:
1. GOD created every spirit in HIS image.
2.HE invited us all to join HIS church telling us about the promises of joining and the bad consequences of rejecting, HIS invitation.

Nature of a True Free Will Choice:
1. A true free will choice must not be coerced nor compelled either by fear, love or hate nor of ideas of good and evil nor by an understanding of God’s true nature, ie, the person must be in a true state of ingenuous innocence.

Nor can they be compelled by any prior event impinging on their life or sensibility - they must be totally free from coercions known and unknown, physically, emotionally and mentally.

Nor can they be compelled by any inner nature, any genetic programming of their biology nor spiritual nature from God. A tape recorder saying, "I love Jesus." is meaningless and has no love at all.

I'm sure you understand that if I coerce your choice, it is not free.

2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice and we would all just choose what seemed to be in our best interest.

Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.

Only in a situation / system / reality where these things could be true can a true free will choice be made. All other choices fall short of true free will or are not choices at all.

It should be obvious by now that nowhere on earth can these necessary things be met, and that is why we suggest they happened pre-earth.

So, how do we choose?

WE think about and discuss the facts we learned in FULL disclosure.
We weigh the promises of joining against the warnings of rebelling.
And we look closely at the three (I'm a Trinitarian) [who looked the same as everyone else so as to not coerce us with the truth of their Majesty] to see if we should trust them / have faith in them.

It seems like we got quick acceptance in the highest angels and quick rejection in the strongest demons and more rejection and more acceptance till ever spirit made int the image of GOD had self chosen their eternal character and place in GOD's reality.

We know little about the motivation of angels but we are told some things about Satan's pride leading to his downfall. From what we know about pride we can surmise that;

• He took umbrage at the idea that these 3 who looked no better than he claimed to be worthy of worship as his GOD.

• He felt that his love for his friends had to be as good as their GODly love anyway.

• He decided that these three were liars and boasters and could not possibly carry out the promises and warnings they spoke of as they could not be GOD and were no better than he was himself.

I for one think I accepted because of the promises but immediately went my own way, not taking any chance but not dedicating my life to the 3 like the first angels did.

Chirstians get strange when they talk about free will and choice here on earth because it is a necessary doctrine but it is impossible to defend so everyone (till now) does it without ever looking at what its religious definition must be.

It certainly has little to do with your premeise that implies people consciously CHOOSE to believe things out of thin air; with no facts, no understanding, no faith.


<shrug>

GOD bless...

Ted
I agree that one cannot choose what to believe but can choose what to have faithful in. I don't see what that has to do with the op, though.

rstrats
Scholar
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:37 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #79

Post by rstrats »

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may be able to demonstrate an ability to consciously choose to believe things.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 671 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Post #80

Post by Purple Knight »

[Replying to post 79 by rstrats]

I started a thread in the politics section musing about a conservative who is a deplorable in his heart but chooses to believe better with his head.

There are also instances where it's more apparent that it's difficult for most people to see both sides of something, so they must simply choose one or the other.

If you don't have an emotional investment either way, you can simply choose whether to believe this is a young woman, or a crone. You're free to select either. You will see whichever you believe is there.

Image

Post Reply