A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.� So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?
Belief a CHOICE?
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Post #11
ttruscott wrote:It is very much a faith, trust, issue. Faith, the proof of things unseen, is a choice....A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things.
Creation:
1. GOD created every spirit in HIS image.
2.HE invited us all to join HIS church telling us about the promises of joining and the bad consequences of rejecting, HIS invitation.
Nature of a True Free Will Choice:
1. A true free will choice must not be coerced nor compelled either by fear, love or hate nor of ideas of good and evil nor by an understanding of God’s true nature, ie, the person must be in a true state of ingenuous innocence.
Nor can they be compelled by any prior event impinging on their life or sensibility - they must be totally free from coercions known and unknown, physically, emotionally and mentally.
Nor can they be compelled by any inner nature, any genetic programming of their biology nor spiritual nature from God. A tape recorder saying, "I love Jesus." is meaningless and has no love at all.
I'm sure you understand that if I coerce your choice, it is not free.
2. The person must understand the consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?� must be answered in full detail.
But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,� “life there,� was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice and we would all just choose what seemed to be in our best interest.
Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice. Such a choice, might be described as making a choice based on faith.
Only in a situation / system / reality where these things could be true can a true free will choice be made. All other choices fall short of true free will or are not choices at all.
It should be obvious by now that nowhere on earth can these necessary things be met, and that is why we suggest they happened pre-earth.
So, how do we choose?
WE think about and discuss the facts we learned in FULL disclosure.
We weigh the promises of joining against the warnings of rebelling.
And we look closely at the three (I'm a Trinitarian) [who looked the same as everyone else so as to not coerce us with the truth of their Majesty] to see if we should trust them / have faith in them.
It seems like we got quick acceptance in the highest angels and quick rejection in the strongest demons and more rejection and more acceptance till ever spirit made int the image of GOD had self chosen their eternal character and place in GOD's reality.
We know little about the motivation of angels but we are told some things about Satan's pride leading to his downfall. From what we know about pride we can surmise that;
• He took umbrage at the idea that these 3 who looked no better than he claimed to be worthy of worship as his GOD.
• He felt that his love for his friends had to be as good as their GODly love anyway.
• He decided that these three were liars and boasters and could not possibly carry out the promises and warnings they spoke of as they could not be GOD and were no better than he was himself.
I for one think I accepted because of the promises but immediately went my own way, not taking any chance but not dedicating my life to the 3 like the first angels did.
Chirstians get strange when they talk about free will and choice here on earth because it is a necessary doctrine but it is impossible to defend so everyone (till now) does it without ever looking at what its religious definition must be.
It certainly has little to do with your premeise that implies people consciously CHOOSE to believe things out of thin air; with no facts, no understanding, no faith.
<shrug>
GOD bless...
Ted
I am trying to work my way through your post in an effort to grasp your viewpoint.
In your explanation of true free will you say that a person must be in a state of ingenuous innocence and this is not possible on earth so the choice is made before earth.
Can you enlighten me in simple terms if possible how this takes place?
Do you believe that our soles make the choice before we are borne?
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"
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rstrats
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Post #12
ttruscott,
re: “It certainly has little to do with your premise that implies people consciously CHOOSE to believe things out of thin air ; with no facts, no understanding, no faith.�
I’m afraid I don’t see where I gave such a premise. However, IF beliefs can be consciously engendered by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence would not be necessary - prudent in certain cases, perhaps - but not necessary.
re: “It certainly has little to do with your premise that implies people consciously CHOOSE to believe things out of thin air ; with no facts, no understanding, no faith.�
I’m afraid I don’t see where I gave such a premise. However, IF beliefs can be consciously engendered by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence would not be necessary - prudent in certain cases, perhaps - but not necessary.
Post #14
Interesting question, I will input my two cents!
I think an inherent part of reality is that we are responsible for our actions. If we don't believe that belief is a choice, then we may feel that we aren't responsible for our actions—because actions are derived from beliefs.
Actions are derived from beliefs. Whenever we take an action, we run it through our beliefs about How Things Are—and decide that action is the most reasonable.
I think an inherent part of reality is that we are responsible for our actions. If we don't believe that belief is a choice, then we may feel that we aren't responsible for our actions—because actions are derived from beliefs.
Actions are derived from beliefs. Whenever we take an action, we run it through our beliefs about How Things Are—and decide that action is the most reasonable.
"Let yourself be silently drawn by the strangle pull of what you really love. It will not lead you astray."
-Rumi
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rstrats
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Post #15
Crazee,
re: "I think an inherent part of reality is that we are responsible for our actions. "
I think that is generally true. However, I'm afraid I don't see how your comments are responsive to the OP. I wonder if you might explain?
re: "I think an inherent part of reality is that we are responsible for our actions. "
I think that is generally true. However, I'm afraid I don't see how your comments are responsive to the OP. I wonder if you might explain?
Post #16
Hmm I will try to explain again.
If belief isn't a choice, then our actions also aren't taken by choice.
If our actions aren't taken by choice, can we be said to be responsible for them?
I believe belief is a choice because I know I've managed to change my life for the better by changing my beliefs. I can't prove to you that choices I make are part of my own power as a conscious being. But, whatever I'm doing, it seems to be working and I'm going to keep at least attempting to choose my beliefs and be responsible for the actions taken forthwith.
If belief isn't a choice, then our actions also aren't taken by choice.
If our actions aren't taken by choice, can we be said to be responsible for them?
I believe belief is a choice because I know I've managed to change my life for the better by changing my beliefs. I can't prove to you that choices I make are part of my own power as a conscious being. But, whatever I'm doing, it seems to be working and I'm going to keep at least attempting to choose my beliefs and be responsible for the actions taken forthwith.
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Jax Agnesson
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Post #17
Maybe it is possible to choose to ignore evidence that points to conclusions I wouldn't like. Would that work?
Would I then be choosing to believe something?
Would I then be choosing to believe something?
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Guy Smiley
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Post #18
I argued with a Christian friend about this for a long time and have come to think that "believe" is a loaded word for a Christian. He and I talk about politics and economics all the time, and he's a really smart guy, but any mention of the word "believe" seemed to shut his brain off and activate these Bible talking points inside of him 
. So since then I've tried to avoid the word.
When an athiest says "I believe X", he really means "I think X is true". Christians might use the word differently? Not sure...
I vote no: you can't choose what you think is true. Even if you think one thing and then change your mind, you don't choose to change your mind.
. So since then I've tried to avoid the word.When an athiest says "I believe X", he really means "I think X is true". Christians might use the word differently? Not sure...
I vote no: you can't choose what you think is true. Even if you think one thing and then change your mind, you don't choose to change your mind.
Post #19
As with so many words central to a point of debate, definition is important. But I don’t think that is even enough.
In my mind there has to be some sort of grade; I believe a lot of things to a point!
I believe in the existence of alien life. (Somewhere in some the galaxy’s but not at Roswell)
Somewhere in some form 99.9% certain there is… Roswell over 99% there isn't.
Then there is the problem of how exact are we thinking, it the world flat or round? (What is flat? The surface of water isn't flat. What is round? The earth defiantly isn't. Or so I believe by my definition of flat and round.
What we think or believe is a combination of billions of balanced ( or unbalanced) calculations or percentages of truth, gained from an enormous amount of random experiences or impute, and I don’t think you can choose the result of that, but you can choose to search in this or that direction for different impute.
But is that direction just a result of all of the above?
In my mind there has to be some sort of grade; I believe a lot of things to a point!
I believe in the existence of alien life. (Somewhere in some the galaxy’s but not at Roswell)
Somewhere in some form 99.9% certain there is… Roswell over 99% there isn't.
Then there is the problem of how exact are we thinking, it the world flat or round? (What is flat? The surface of water isn't flat. What is round? The earth defiantly isn't. Or so I believe by my definition of flat and round.
What we think or believe is a combination of billions of balanced ( or unbalanced) calculations or percentages of truth, gained from an enormous amount of random experiences or impute, and I don’t think you can choose the result of that, but you can choose to search in this or that direction for different impute.
But is that direction just a result of all of the above?
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"
Post #20
How would you say that one can determine if an action is random?Baz wrote: What we think or believe is a combination of billions of balanced ( or unbalanced) calculations or percentages of truth, gained from an enormous amount of random experiences or impute, and I don’t think you can choose the result of that, but you can choose to search in this or that direction for different impute.
