"Nothing can be known, not even this"

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Haven

"Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Carneades wrote:Nothing can be known, not even this!
In 159 BCE, ancient Greek skeptical philosopher Carneades made this statement in an attempt to refute the possibility of human beings having knowledge of anything, with knowledge defined as "belief that precludes the possibility of error." Carneades believed claiming knowledge of any sort was dogmatic.

For the skeptic, certitude of anything (even this statement) is impossible for humans to obtain. Instead, skeptics believe that humans can only assign degrees of probability to any proposition, granting higher probabilities to seemingly plausible propositions and granting lower probabilities to seemingly implausible propositions.

The principles behind skepticism are the fallibility of the human brain and the uncertain nature of reality. Science has demonstrated that the brain is capable of misinterpreting phenomena, creating hallucinations, and thinking irrationally.
Additionally, we do not even know what reality is: for all we know, we could be living in a computer simulation in which everything we can detect -- matter, energy, and other minds -- are all constructed from lines of computer code. Solipsism, the idea that nothing except one's own minds exists, could be true: after all, you could be a brain in a vat hooked up to a machine feeding you stimuli that causes your brain to react as if it were experiencing reality.

Skepticism appears the only truly rational response in the case of these considerations.

Debate question: is knowledge possible? Can anything be known with certitude? If so, how?

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #81

Post by Tcg »

2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:57 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:45 am
If it cannot be known that nothing is known, that implies that something can be known.
So, are you claiming that something can be known? If so, what is it?


Tcg
Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But I would go much further than Descartes, as I suggested about evolution and sense data.

Best wishes, 2RM.
How do you know it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because I can entertain the possibility that it isn't.

Best wishes, 2RM
How does that establish that it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because we humans have a recursive consciousness; not only can we think, we can think about our thinking and assess it for quality. Even if my thoughts are not my own (and I allow for input by God and Satan) my thoughts about my thoughts must be.

Best wishes, 2RM.
This doesn't answer my question. God and Satan aside, how do you know any of your thoughts are your own?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #82

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Tcg wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:57 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:45 am
If it cannot be known that nothing is known, that implies that something can be known.
So, are you claiming that something can be known? If so, what is it?


Tcg
Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But I would go much further than Descartes, as I suggested about evolution and sense data.

Best wishes, 2RM.
How do you know it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because I can entertain the possibility that it isn't.

Best wishes, 2RM
How does that establish that it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because we humans have a recursive consciousness; not only can we think, we can think about our thinking and assess it for quality. Even if my thoughts are not my own (and I allow for input by God and Satan) my thoughts about my thoughts must be.

Best wishes, 2RM.


This doesn't answer my question. God and Satan aside, how do you know any of your thoughts are your own?


Tcg
My dear Tcg, if not God or Satan, or angels or demons, who else's might they be? As Sherlock Holmes has it: Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #83

Post by nobspeople »

2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:53 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:57 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:45 am
If it cannot be known that nothing is known, that implies that something can be known.
So, are you claiming that something can be known? If so, what is it?


Tcg
Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But I would go much further than Descartes, as I suggested about evolution and sense data.

Best wishes, 2RM.
How do you know it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because I can entertain the possibility that it isn't.

Best wishes, 2RM
How does that establish that it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because we humans have a recursive consciousness; not only can we think, we can think about our thinking and assess it for quality. Even if my thoughts are not my own (and I allow for input by God and Satan) my thoughts about my thoughts must be.

Best wishes, 2RM.


This doesn't answer my question. God and Satan aside, how do you know any of your thoughts are your own?


Tcg
My dear Tcg, if not God or Satan, or angels or demons, who else's might they be? As Sherlock Holmes has it: Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Not to speak for Tcg, but you seem to be eliminating any other possibilities with your own question: if not this or that, what else (inferring only 'this' or 'that' exists).
Are you open to other possibilities, or are you closed off to things in which you don't believe?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #84

Post by 2ndRateMind »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:37 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:53 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:57 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:45 am
If it cannot be known that nothing is known, that implies that something can be known.
So, are you claiming that something can be known? If so, what is it?


Tcg
Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But I would go much further than Descartes, as I suggested about evolution and sense data.

Best wishes, 2RM.
How do you know it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because I can entertain the possibility that it isn't.

Best wishes, 2RM
How does that establish that it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because we humans have a recursive consciousness; not only can we think, we can think about our thinking and assess it for quality. Even if my thoughts are not my own (and I allow for input by God and Satan) my thoughts about my thoughts must be.

Best wishes, 2RM.


This doesn't answer my question. God and Satan aside, how do you know any of your thoughts are your own?


Tcg
My dear Tcg, if not God or Satan, or angels or demons, who else's might they be? As Sherlock Holmes has it: Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Not to speak for Tcg, but you seem to be eliminating any other possibilities with your own question: if not this or that, what else (inferring only 'this' or 'that' exists).
Are you open to other possibilities, or are you closed off to things in which you don't believe?
I'm open to other possibilities. But just not impossibilities.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #85

Post by nobspeople »

2ndRateMind wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:17 am
nobspeople wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:37 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:53 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:10 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:57 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 am
Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:57 pm

So, are you claiming that something can be known? If so, what is it?


Tcg
Cogito ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But I would go much further than Descartes, as I suggested about evolution and sense data.

Best wishes, 2RM.
How do you know it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because I can entertain the possibility that it isn't.

Best wishes, 2RM
How does that establish that it is you doing the thinking?


Tcg
Because we humans have a recursive consciousness; not only can we think, we can think about our thinking and assess it for quality. Even if my thoughts are not my own (and I allow for input by God and Satan) my thoughts about my thoughts must be.

Best wishes, 2RM.


This doesn't answer my question. God and Satan aside, how do you know any of your thoughts are your own?


Tcg
My dear Tcg, if not God or Satan, or angels or demons, who else's might they be? As Sherlock Holmes has it: Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Not to speak for Tcg, but you seem to be eliminating any other possibilities with your own question: if not this or that, what else (inferring only 'this' or 'that' exists).
Are you open to other possibilities, or are you closed off to things in which you don't believe?
I'm open to other possibilities. But just not impossibilities.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Your wording seems to say otherwise.
If you're open to any god of any kind/sort, that automatically makes you open to all possibilities, no matter how probably or improbable then are.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Nothing can be known, not even this"

Post #86

Post by mac_ »

Haven wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:13 pm
Carneades wrote:Nothing can be known, not even this!
In 159 BCE, ancient Greek skeptical philosopher Carneades made this statement in an attempt to refute the possibility of human beings having knowledge of anything, with knowledge defined as "belief that precludes the possibility of error." Carneades believed claiming knowledge of any sort was dogmatic.

For the skeptic, certitude of anything (even this statement) is impossible for humans to obtain. Instead, skeptics believe that humans can only assign degrees of probability to any proposition, granting higher probabilities to seemingly plausible propositions and granting lower probabilities to seemingly implausible propositions.

The principles behind skepticism are the fallibility of the human brain and the uncertain nature of reality. Science has demonstrated that the brain is capable of misinterpreting phenomena, creating hallucinations, and thinking irrationally.
Additionally, we do not even know what reality is: for all we know, we could be living in a computer simulation in which everything we can detect -- matter, energy, and other minds -- are all constructed from lines of computer code. Solipsism, the idea that nothing except one's own minds exists, could be true: after all, you could be a brain in a vat hooked up to a machine feeding you stimuli that causes your brain to react as if it were experiencing reality.

Skepticism appears the only truly rational response in the case of these considerations.

Debate question: is knowledge possible? Can anything be known with certitude? If so, how?
Well Carneades certainly thinks knowledge is possible since he thinks he knows nothing can be known.
Non-religious theist.

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